D&D 5E What if Expertise were a simple +2?

Quartz · Oct 3, 2018

Currently, Expertise doubles your proficiency bonus. This means that PCs can simply take a level of Rogue and instantly get +4 to +12 to their roll. That doesn't seem right to me, and mathematically, multipliers are a bad idea where bounded accuracy is involved.

So how about having Expertise as a plain +2? That's low enough to not be game-breaking but high enough to matter, especially at low levels. Rogues could perhaps improve it to +4 at 10th level instead of the ASI.

How would this affect the game?

Quartz · Oct 3, 2018

As precedent, I'll cite two of the Fighter's Combat Styles: Sharpshooter is a fixed +2 to hit and Duellist is a fixed +2 to damage. Both are initially the same as the Proficiency Bonus but unlike Expertise stay there.

ad_hoc · Oct 3, 2018

Quartz said:
Currently, Expertise doubles your proficiency bonus. This means that PCs can simply take a level of Rogue and instantly get +4 to +12 to their roll. That doesn't seem right to me, and mathematically, multipliers are a bad idea where bounded accuracy is involved.

So how about having Expertise as a plain +2? That's low enough to not be game-breaking but high enough to matter, especially at low levels. Rogues could perhaps improve it to +4 at 10th level instead of the ASI.

How would this affect the game?

Which Ability Checks are you having issues with?

Is it just multiclassing that you don't like? If so, I would look at multiclassing rather than class features.

The only checks I'm not a fan of are shove and grapple. These are attacks and shouldn't be handled as ability checks.

Giltonio_Santos · Oct 3, 2018

It would make single-classed rogues worse just to avoid a multiclass dip that I have never seen in actual play. I don't think that's necessary or even worth it.

Quartz · Oct 3, 2018

ad_hoc said:
Which Ability Checks are you having issues with?

This is just theorising.

jgsugden · Oct 3, 2018

PCs are heroes. They do remarkable things. Being experts in a couple skills allows a PC to do some remarkable things.... like they're supposed to do. Trivialing certain challenges MAKES the PCs heroic. Celebrate these high ability scores for what they are - something that makes the PC far better than the average Joe...

cmad1977 · Oct 3, 2018

Complete non-issue that boils down to ‘oh no! The characters in my campaign ‘might’ be awesome at some things!’

Guest 6801328 · Oct 3, 2018

Comparing bonuses between combat and skills isn't a good idea. Apples and oranges.

MiraMels · Oct 3, 2018

Multiclassing is an optional rule.

Ristamar · Oct 3, 2018

I find it interesting that a lot of people are bothered by Expertise supposedly "breaking" bounded accuracy at high levels, yet I don't see many complaints about huge ability score bonuses that are easily attainable at the lowest levels.