D&D 5E What if Expertise were a simple +2?

[Quartz]

Thought so.

Do you have a problem with that?

 

[BookBarbarian]

Do you have a problem with that?

I don't, but I do think it's helpful to specify "This is something I want to do to improve the game at may table" vs "This is something I noticed and wonder about"

It's especially helpful for newbies reading the threads.

When I was a new DM I got it in my head that so many things needed to be fixed in the game. When I decided to just wait and see if any of them were actually a problem in play my perspective changed a lot.

Edit: I do still find thought exercises fun and did enjoy thinking about this.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Except it's an additional - cumulative - bonus; the PC gets both. And a high level PC with levels in Rogue can get +20 to their roll: +14 from +6 Proficiency Bonus with a +1 PB Ioun stone and +6 from a 22 stat (+2 Book of whatever) versus +13 without levels in Rogue.

Again, look at the Fighter. Their Combat Styles don't improve; instead they get to choose another.

It's a +6 to a skill check at 20th level. That you were probably going to pass anyways. The very definition of gilding the lilly. Is it overpowered vs high level spells? Clearly no. I don't get why people wring their hands over non-issues. The Paladin's auras are by far more offensive to bounded accuracy and utterly trivialize saving throws.

 

[Mistwell]

Do you have a problem with that?

Only as it relates to the part of my comment you cut? IE "It's worrying about a problem that I don't think exists. I don't think anyone is actually bothered that rogues get double proficiency either."

I don't think theorizing about house rules without actually encountering the problem in a game is wise most of the time. Particularly concerning a rule that hasn't received widespread complaint or problems on any circle I know about.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It's a +6 to a skill check at 20th level. That you were probably going to pass anyways. The very definition of gilding the lilly.

A lot of skills are competitive. Your Perception is contested against their Stealth. Your Athletics is contested against their Athletics. Between the Expertise mechanic and the Reliable Talent mechanic, a rogue can practically guarantee success in contests where they would otherwise have an even chance of losing.

The Paladin's auras are by far more offensive to bounded accuracy and utterly trivialize saving throws.

If by "utterly trivialize saving throws" you mean "actually give you a 20% chance of making your bad saves, instead of automatically failing without a roll", then sure. The paladin's aura is a bandage on the otherwise-broken saving throw mechanics.

A big difference between skill checks and saving throws, which impacts their place under bounded accuracy, is that you can often choose when you want to make your own skill checks, while saving throws are only ever imposed on you by others. Expertise breaks bounded accuracy when you have a high ability modifier backing it up, which is likely to happen when you're choosing to use the skill. Paladins only break bounded accuracy when the enemy targets a saving throw that you were already good at, which they probably aren't going to do if they have any alternative.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

A lot of skills are competitive. Your Perception is contested against their Stealth. Your Athletics is contested against their Athletics. Between the Expertise mechanic and the Reliable Talent mechanic, a rogue can practically guarantee success in contests where they would otherwise have an even chance of losing.

Good. Can they cast high level spells? Rearrange their plot busting superpowers every day? Still not an issue compared to casters (for the record, i dont think Bards need expertise).

If by "utterly trivialize saving throws" you mean "actually give you a 20% chance of making your bad saves, instead of automatically failing without a roll", then sure. The paladin's aura is a bandage on the otherwise-broken saving throw mechanics.

A big difference between skill checks and saving throws, which impacts their place under bounded accuracy, is that you can often choose when you want to make your own skill checks, while saving throws are only ever imposed on you by others. Expertise breaks bounded accuracy when you have a high ability modifier backing it up, which is likely to happen when you're choosing to use the skill. Paladins only break bounded accuracy when the enemy targets a saving throw that you were already good at, which they probably aren't going to do if they have any alternative.

ALL Saves factor in a lot more than a couple skills. Moreover, it does trivialize fights (particularly the oath of the ancients resistance to magic damage) and stacks with Bless. At most, the paladin aura should let you use your proficiency bonus on non-proficient saves. As it stands a high CHA paladin is breaking the game at a much lower level.

 

[Mad_Jack]

Yeah I've never once seen anyone dip rogue just for expertise..

I don't know how often Expertise gets used to shore up a weakness (like taking Perception when your Wisdom is only 10)

I have a Dex fighter who's going to be dipping one (or two) level(s) of rogue at some point mainly for the Expertise to shore up her Athletics skill. And possibly her Intimidation.
The sneak attack damage doesn't hurt, either (well, it hurts the other guy, lol), but it's really to add some padding to aspects of the character where the stats from the Standard Array didn't quite give me enough working space to accurately match up the on-paper mechanics with my narrative vision for the character.

(On a side note, the dip is perfectly in line with her backstory, and I'm also pretty sure there's no way in hell I'll ever get to play her to high levels, so I'm not particularly concerned with missing out on end-game perks.)

 

[Grognerd]

And a high level PC with levels in Rogue can get +20 to their roll: +14 from +6 Proficiency Bonus with a +1 PB Ioun stone and +6 from a 22 stat (+2 Book of whatever) versus +13 without levels in Rogue.

Hardly a reasonable comparison, since you are now adding to/embellishing your argument with not one, but two rare magic items that just happen to be perfect for the thief. So we'll remove +2 from that to make it +18 vs. +13. So the skill monkey - whose schtick entails him being an expert at skills - has the mechanical equivalent of Advantage (since you just +/- 5 to Passive Perception for Advantage/Disadvantage situations) against the non-skill monkey - who isn't there to be a skill expert. At 20th level.

Yeah... this is broken or problematic how??

 

[Leatherhead]

Skills are getting a bit out of hand as of late. You can get your expertise, and +1d4 for your subrace, and +1d4 for having the Guidance cantrip, and +1dx for having a bard in the party, and and 3-die super-advantage from a feat, all before level 5. I'm starting to get 3.x flashbacks here.

Consider instead:
You get an Expertise Bonus OR your Ability Mod Bonus.

That way, someone can pick up Expertise on, say History, and still be really good at it even if they have 8 Intelligence. And in the end you end up better than someone who is relying on raw talent.

 

[Yaarel]

I wish combat attacks and skill checks used the same math. Wielding a weapon is like any other kind of skill. Expertise for sharpshooter and expertise for grappling and expertise for persuasion, should all be the same numeric value.

It was a mistake to create two different systems.