Alternate Guidance Spell: Less Powerful, Always On

Stalker0 · Oct 17, 2018

77IM said:
First, phrasing suggestion (emphasis is my suggestion):

Second, I suspect that the players will get tired of deciding who gets guidance and just say something like, "We decided as a group that Darvinius is just going to cast guidance on Aien Styn once per hour, unless we say otherwise." So the cantrip will turn into a permanent buff for one PC, and probably not the PC who invested spell resources to get it. I may be wrong about that -- you know your players and I don't -- it's just something to watch out for.

This is a good idea thank you.

All, as I said before I don't want this thread to turn into another Guidance debate. All of your points are quite valid, I have in fact voiced them many times in other debates about Guidance's balance. I just feel that in my current new campaign the old arguments don't work as well, and I am simply getting tired of the amount of guidance rolls and guidance reviews I as a DM are having to do for this particular game. So I am trying a new approach, please respect that. I am not here to say that guidance is busted in most games, I believe it is fine most of the time. I am looking at a corner case, and I'm asking you to help me review a houserule for that particular corner case

5ekyu · Oct 17, 2018

Stalker0 said:
This is a good idea thank you.

All, as I said before I don't want this thread to turn into another Guidance debate. All of your points are quite valid, I have in fact voiced them many times in other debates about Guidance's balance. I just feel that in my current new campaign the old arguments don't work as well, and I am simply getting tired of the amount of guidance rolls and guidance reviews I as a DM are having to do for this particular game. So I am trying a new approach, please respect that. I am not here to say that guidance is busted in most games, I believe it is fine most of the time. I am looking at a corner case, and I'm asking you to help me review a houserule for that particular corner case

Just curious - not sure what you mean by guidance rolls.

In my games they just throw the d20 and d4 together so its really one roll with two dice not a separate roll. no real slowdown of gameplay unless someone has math issues and if they do have math issues adding small numbers this is not the game for them.

Also, in my games, there isn't really much Gm adjudication, it applies to ability checks *if* it was in effect. So, i dont have to really do anything before saying "ability check".

Is what you mean by the bolded part "how many rolls get a boost from guidance" or are your guys actually making the rolls separately as in "roll the d20, do my mods then worry about guidance if i need to provoking a second stage of rolling"?

Do you have similar problems with bardic inspiration or paladins save bonuses?

Stalker0 · Oct 17, 2018

5ekyu said:
Just curious - not sure what you mean by guidance rolls.

In my games they just throw the d20 and d4 together so its really one roll with two dice not a separate roll. no real slowdown of gameplay unless someone has math issues and if they do have math issues adding small numbers this is not the game for them.

Also, in my games, there isn't really much Gm adjudication, it applies to ability checks *if* it was in effect. So, i dont have to really do anything before saying "ability check".

Is what you mean by the bolded part "how many rolls get a boost from guidance" or are your guys actually making the rolls separately as in "roll the d20, do my mods then worry about guidance if i need to provoking a second stage of rolling"?

Do you have similar problems with bardic inspiration or paladins save bonuses?

Generally the caster has been rolling the d4 and the other player the d20. So the scenario is:

1) DM can I use guidance of that?
2) Yes you can.
3) Alright (rolls a d4) add 2 to your check.
4) Other player rolls the check.

In most games hasn't been a problem. This game is just much more skill rolling based than is typical for me, so that little ditty is becoming an actual time sink.

5ekyu · Oct 17, 2018

Stalker0 said:
Generally the caster has been rolling the d4 and the other player the d20. So the scenario is:

1) DM can I use guidance of that?
2) Yes you can.
3) Alright (rolls a d4) add 2 to your check.
4) Other player rolls the check.

In most games hasn't been a problem. This game is just much more skill rolling based than is typical for me, so that little ditty is becoming an actual time sink.

I would suggest you try at least for a little bit using the spell as written then... " Once before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check of its choice. It can roll the die before or after making the ability check. "

Another you might consider is this - roll both dice together if you have guidance in effect, then only "burn" that d4 if the original check fails. keeps it to a decision, not a whole new step.

Quickleaf · Oct 17, 2018

Stalker0 said:
The Guidance spell has been heavily debated in the past, and I don't want to rehash it here. While I have used it normally in campaigns of my past, I'm finding in this one (which is heavily skill focused) that's its just too powerful and taking up too much roll time for my taste.

So I'm considering this houserule, which would decrease the raw power of the effect, but make it more automatic and omnipresent. Basically turning this into a general buff.

Guidance

Target: Touch
Duration: 1 hour

Effect: Creature touched gains a +1 bonus to ability checks utilizing a skill.

So quick and easy. Effectively if the party is together, I would just assume they have +1 to all ability checks involving a skill. I added that last caveat since its not intended to improve things like initiative or dispel checks in this version. Its meant for skills, quick and clean, no ruling, no dm interpretation of when its appropriate. Just a simple bonus the party can enjoy.

Do you see any concerns with this version I should keep in mind?

One interesting consequence of your wording is that your guidance would not work with straight ability checks... such as spellcasting ability checks or Constitution checks to endure harsh conditions / Strength checks to lift something heavy. While I understand where wanting to avoid guidance on spellcasting ability checks would come from, I'm not as sure why you'd want to exclude "non-skill" ability checks (typically Con/Str)?

Stalker0 · Oct 18, 2018

Quickleaf said:
One interesting consequence of your wording is that your guidance would not work with straight ability checks... such as spellcasting ability checks or Constitution checks to endure harsh conditions / Strength checks to lift something heavy. While I understand where wanting to avoid guidance on spellcasting ability checks would come from, I'm not as sure why you'd want to exclude "non-skill" ability checks (typically Con/Str)?

My main purpose with that was to prevent a bonus to Initiative checks

5ekyu · Oct 18, 2018

Stalker0 said:
My main purpose with that was to prevent a bonus to Initiative checks

Can i ask why would you be say upset with it being used on an initiative ckeck but not an athletics "catch someone falling past" check, if its only init you are aiming at...

Assumes in both cases Guidance was active

Stalker0 · Oct 18, 2018

5ekyu said:
Can i ask why would you be say upset with it being used on an initiative ckeck but not an athletics "catch someone falling past" check, if its only init you are aiming at...

Assumes in both cases Guidance was active

Initiative has always been looked at as a very powerful bonus in my group. That said, that is the least of my concerns. If it effected initiative it would not be the end of the world.

5ekyu · Oct 19, 2018

Stalker0 said:
Initiative has always been looked at as a very powerful bonus in my group. That said, that is the least of my concerns. If it effected initiative it would not be the end of the world.

We have very different groups. In my game, I had to answer "can I take disadvantage voluntarily" and it was on initiative rolls.

My ruling was that the character not wanting to go first did in fact constitute "• An element of the plan or description of an action makes success less likely" and so I "a signed disadvantage yo that character's init check.

But that's part of what led my game to adopt a more choice driven init system than a roll one.

That principle is why I do not get hung up like some on guidance supported checks - they are moves by the players and choices by the players (especially risky when the enemies are afoot) to make choices that influence the dice result not just rolling dice. Every time they see that d4 make the difference, they see cooperation and planning rewarded directly and I like it when the mechanics show that to be the case for me.

Alternate Guidance Spell: Less Powerful, Always On

Stalker0

Legend

5ekyu

Hero

Stalker0

Legend

5ekyu

Hero

Quickleaf

Legend

Stalker0

Legend

5ekyu

Hero

Stalker0

Legend

5ekyu

Hero

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