D&D (2024) World Tree Barbarian capstone (level 14) - a proposal

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
The capstone ability of the World Tree Barbarian ("Travel along the Tree") was changed significantly from playtest 7 and playtest 8.

tl;dr: I hope feedback encourages the designers to restore the plane-shifting ability to this ability.

In playtest 7: you touch a tree or teleportation circle, and you travel along the tree to another place in the same worklf or to another plane. You can take 5 willing creatures with you and you can burn 5 rage uses to use it again, or it recharges on a long rest.

In effect this combines three effects:
(a) you bypass needing to know the sigil sequences when using a teleportation circle;
(b) you can use a huge tree as a teleportation circle;
(c) you can cast a limited version of Plane Shift (normally a 7th level spell): it only affects 5 willing creatures, not 8, and it is only the utility option that's available (you can't use it to banish an enemy). Also, there's no Material component.

In contrast, playtest 8 gives the following effects:
(a) bonus action to teleport up to 60' -- effectively a double-distance Misty Step.
(b) teleport up to six willing creatures 500', once per rage (and so 5/long rest, going up to 6/long).

That's a big change: I see the desire to give the barbarian something they can use in combat. 8a does that -- a use for the bonus action every turn, but it has to be in combat (if you use the bonus action for this, you need to take an attack since you can't use your bonus action to extend your rage now). That limitation impacts the effectiveness of 8b: you have to be raging, and you need to attack (or force a save). This isn't a utility/exploration feature to help the party cross a chasm or whatever; it is a niche combat ability. I can see it being used to allow a party to launch an ambush, but never 5/long rest. I'm not saying it's useless, but using it once will be an occasional effect against an intended opponent, not a regular thing in combat.

I get that everyone is blinking about these days in combat. While 8a is a powerful effect, and i can see how it represents "travelling along the world tree", it is not something that distinguishes the subclass from many other options.

In contrast, the playtest 7 effects are evocative, to me at least. 7c. alone gives me a reason to want to play the subclass all the way through, something i have never wanted to do with a barbarian previously. That does suggest, to me, travelling along the world tree, this cosmological thing that unites all the planes. Evocative, distinct, and powerful, but not combat oriented. 7b is tree-themed, and in combination with 7a. is also powerful, but for reasons of exploration problem solving. I'd be fine if it were limited (1/long rest? 1/rage?). This would even give NPC wizards wanting to do nefarious things with teleportation circles a reason to keep a barbarian around.

Is there any way of salvaging this? I think there is: keep the combat blinking (8a); and allow the effects from (7a-c), once per long rest (with or without the option to recharge by spending rages. We'd lose the ambush-ability from 8b, but in its place gain some powerful, evocative, world-tree related effects that would help the whole party and support the barb in the exploration pillar. Granted, 7a-c wouldn't happen regularly: I'm fine with that. But if that were kept, I'd feel that I understood more about what the world-tree was, and I'd be excited to play a straight barbarian to upper levels.

My proposal, then, is to keep the bonus-action Misty Step effect form playtest 8, but re-incorporate the plane-shifting tree-travelling from playtest 7 in the World Tree Barbarian''s capstone ability.
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Personally, I wish they’d just give the World Tree Barbarian Tree Stride and Plane Shift once per day each, and allow them to maintain concentration on Tree Stride while raging. These effects already exist, why not just use them?
 

Yaarel

He Mage
Re the World Tree and planeshifting.

From a Norse Yggdrasill perspective, the Tree is strictly this-worldly. It refers to the air itself, whose branches form the shape of the dome of the sky, whose clouds course thru the upper branches, and whose appearance changes with the seasons. In other words, the Tree is an aspect of the Material Plane. Generally speaking, "animism" is D&D innate magic within the Material Plane. The sky unifies all lands together. For example, the northern realm of Niflheimr is the arctic ice cap, and the southern realm of Múspelheimr is the equatorial regions, especially relating to the Sahara. The skyey Tree encompasses all. Teleportation can make sense, and so does flight. Planeshifting is something different.

That said, the D&D multiverse is interconnected.

Any planeshifting feature might work better if shifting "between two locales that share similar terrain or symbols". So, a sacred building in the Material Plane can shift to a comparable locale in the Astral Plane that shares similar sacred symbols. A volcanic terrain in the Material Plane can shift to a comparable locale in the Elemental Plane of Fire. And so on.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
From a Norse Yggdrasill perspective, the Tree is strictly this-worldly. It refers to the air itself, whose branches form the shape of the dome of the sky, whose clouds course thru the upper branches, and whose appearance changes with the seasons. In other words, the Tree is an aspect of the Material Plane. Generally speaking, "animism" is D&D innate magic within the Material Plane. The sky unifies all lands together. For example, the northern realm of Niflheimr is the arctic ice cap, and the southern realm of Múspelheimr is the equatorial regions, especially relating to the Sahara.
That’s a, uh… creative interpretation.
 


Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
Re the World Tree and planeshifting.

From a Norse Yggdrasill perspective, the Tree is strictly this-worldly. It refers to the air itself, whose branches form the shape of the dome of the sky, whose clouds course thru the upper branches, and whose appearance changes with the seasons. In other words, the Tree is an aspect of the Material Plane. Generally speaking, "animism" is D&D innate magic within the Material Plane. The sky unifies all lands together. For example, the northern realm of Niflheimr is the arctic ice cap, and the southern realm of Múspelheimr is the equatorial regions, especially relating to the Sahara. The skyey Tree encompasses all. Teleportation can make sense, and so does flight. Planeshifting is something different.

That said, the D&D multiverse is interconnected.

I don't think your rationalizing/Euhemeristic understanding of Yggdrasil is supported by the sources. Sure, that's one way to interpret it, but, pretty famously, the world-ash connects multiple worlds. In Snorri's prose Edda, the tree covers the world, and its roots extend to the home of the Aesir, to the land of the frost giants, and to Niflheim (the world of mist and darkness).

That's about as plane-spanning as one can get, if this is transferred to the D&D Planes of Existence. (One can use Snorri further, if we want: Yggdrasil is under attack, and needs defenders... hence the subclass. But that' snot explicit in the material, and the exact equivalence of Yggdrasil with the World Tree is obviously problematic.)

To take the plane-shifting away from the subclass undercuts any meaningful understanding of a World Tree.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
I don't think your rationalizing/Euhemeristic understanding of Yggdrasil is supported by the sources. Sure, that's one way to interpret it, but, pretty famously, the world-ash connects multiple worlds. In Snorri's prose Edda, the tree covers the world, and its roots extend to the home of the Aesir, to the land of the frost giants, and to Niflheim (the world of mist and darkness).

That's about as plane-spanning as one can get, if this is transferred to the D&D Planes of Existence. (One can use Snorri further, if we want: Yggdrasil is under attack, and needs defenders... hence the subclass. But that' snot explicit in the material, and the exact equivalence of Yggdrasil with the World Tree is obviously problematic.)

To take the plane-shifting away from the subclass undercuts any meaningful understanding of a World Tree.
There is only one "world" (verǫld). Within this world are nine "regions" (heimar).

The branches and roots of the "World" Tree expand from one end of the known world to the other, encompassing all of these regions.

The branches spread out to form a dome, the dome of the sky.

Any one can look up and plainly see this tree, stretching out across the sky. Things of the sky exist among its upper branches.

The cloud patterns resemble branchy streaks and leafy clumps.

This is animism. This world is the only world there is. There are no other worlds to go to. Breath becomes winds, corpse becomes earth.


The extent Norse texts never itemize the nine regions that get counted. A common identification is the realms of the nature beings, mentioned in other Norse texts.

• Niflheimr (northern region of icy mist)
• Múspelheimr (southern region of fiery cataclysm)
• Ásgarðr (center of the world, where the trunk of the Tree is, where sky beings who live among clouds assemble their parliament)
• Miðgarðr (continent where many humans live)
• Jǫtunheimr (area where the jǫtnar live, Nordic lands)
• Vanaheimr (region of vanir, winds and agricultural weather below clouds)
• Alfheimr (elf region in the sky, in the upper atmosphere above the clouds, associating with the sun-radiance)
• Svartalfaheimr (region of dwarves, underground, among rock and mud)
• Hel (region of the collective grave, underground, and accessible by a tunnel in the arctic north, the Hel gate (Helgrindr)

These nature beings (vættir) are part of this world, even when their projections are "hidden" from view. For example, a corpse can project a ghostly influence.


Translating into D&D: all of these regions are in the known world, on a planet, in the Material Plane.
 
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Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
None of this is relevant. You are making a lexicographic argument, assuming an understanding of Norse by the designers and apparently all players of the game, that is ignoring subclass documentation we've been given.
Translating into D&D: all of these regions are in the known world, on a planet, in the Material Plane.
Your conclusion simply does not correspond to the Planes of Existence section of the PHB. Great for your own game, but not related to this discussion.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
None of this is relevant. You are making a lexicographic argument, assuming an understanding of Norse by the designers and apparently all players of the game, that is ignoring subclass documentation we've been given.

Your conclusion simply does not correspond to the Planes of Existence section of the PHB. Great for your own game, but not related to this discussion.
Your earlier post misunderstands Snorri.

Now, this cited post ignores Snorri altogether.


The playtest mentions "Yggdrasill", by name. It is a reallife, culturally sacred heritage of Nordic peoples. Dont use a reallife cultural name, if intentionally misrepresenting it.
 

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
Your earlier post misunderstands Snorri.
No, it rejects your specific interpretation of a text you are not citing.
Now, this cited post ignores Snorri altogether.
Yes, because what you are claiming is not in Snorri, but a collection of sources (as you mention) that are being syncretized.
The playtest mentions "Yggdrasill", by name. It is a reallife, culturally sacred heritage of Nordic peoples. Dont use a reallife cultural name, if intentionally misrepresenting it.
I presume that you use "intentionally misrepresenting" in reference to the designers, and not to me. And if so, that can and should be your feedback to the playtest materials. It has nothing to do with the proposal in this thread.

I understand your point in post 3, that you would prefer not to have planeshifting associated with this subclass. We disagree.

If you want to do a close reading of Snorri's language together, or discuss how myth works, we can do so in another thread. I'd be happy to see that happen. You can also start a separate thread on the use of culturally sacred heritage in game materials and whether that applies, but that is not something on which I would contribute.
 

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