Do your Political Views shape how your villains and heroes act?

Thomas Bowman · Oct 20, 2018

Eltab said:
Completely remove? No. Minimize and become aware of, as when searching for objective truth? Yes.

For example,
Someone might think it was obvious that corporations were evil and assume the players will just agree that its obvious, and it would seem perfectly natural that the villain should be a corporate CEO of a faceless corporation, after all, the DM reasons, who else could be a villain besides that? A person who things that corporations are evil might not think that he is making his political leanings obvious by his choice of villains, but he is.

Bedrockgames · Oct 20, 2018

Thomas Bowman said:
For example,
Someone might think it was obvious that corporations were evil and assume the players will just agree that its obvious, and it would seem perfectly natural that the villain should be a corporate CEO of a faceless corporation, after all, the DM reasons, who else could be a villain besides that? A person who things that corporations are evil might not think that he is making his political leanings obvious by his choice of villains, but he is.

But the person in this example is clearly allowing their political views to impact the choice of villain. Another GM might focus more on making an interesting villain regardless of how much that jives with his or her POV. Maybe the villain is the CEO, maybe it is a union leader, or an activist (or someone with zero clear political implications). Also, just because people can read a political message in something, doesnt mean the GM was guided or influenced by politics. Again, I'd go back to the distinction I made earlier between someone who is actively using the heroes and villains as mouthpieces for their political views (or even using the general set-up in that way) versus someone who isn't even thinking in this terms. If we are then going to get into people saying 'there is still a hidden message or subconscious intent', I think that is so speculative and so driven by the interpreter's own lens, it is kind of vague and meaningless most of the time. And not saying most books or stories have no message or subtext. But there is a spectrum here when it comes to how political creative works are. Saying everything is automatically political, because politics is all, so expands the meaning of the term, it makes it meaningless.

Bedrockgames · Oct 20, 2018

Gradine said:
I'm not presuming to know anybody else's politics. I'm suggesting that people who actively try not to think about or engage in politics might not be aware of the political implications that their actions or choices might potentially have, because they are, by definition, trying not to think about it. My argument is that this isn't exactly an ideal way to approach politics.

Or they could be fully aware of possible political implications and simply not care or regard them as relevant to what they are doing. I mean I could be the most politically minded person in all other aspects of my life, but when I sit down to GM, I may consider it the worst place imaginable to insert my politics. Now you can choose to see political message in my choice of villains, but don't I get a say at all as the person who made those villains. And I do think there is something to be said here that people are choosing to see politics, even if it is a huge stretch. For me personally, when it comes to running an adventure, I just don't see it as a particularly useful platform for making a political point. Doesn't mean some things won't by their nature be political. But it does mean, when I make an evil barbarian villain, I am not commenting on anything in particular with it (even if I am aware of how it could be used for such commentary). I have strong political beliefs. I don't think my Sunday game is the place for me to try to persuade my friends to them. I certainly don't believe that the content of my game subconsciously moves people to political positions they wouldn't otherwise have though. I just think people at my table would rather hear my political views directly than watch me use the game as some kind of political allegory or lesson for them.

As an aside, I'd be hard pressed to find a piece of fiction that wasn't trying to say something about something, no matter how ultimately innocuous, whether that thing is political in the specific sense or more broadly in the social/cultural/moral/ethical sense (which, I would again argue, are impossible to disentangle from politics). At least, not any piece of worthwhile fiction. Most often, though, I find that pieces of fiction that try desperately not to say something actually end up saying quite a bit, however unintentionally.

Being about something does not equal being political in my view. But even then, if you are just talking about subtext, I think that is a spectrum. Somethings are heavily laden with subtext, somethings just are not. Doesn't mean you can't find meaning in them, beyond the text. But I do think the intent is important. There are writers who have written with the sole aim of telling a story and nothing more. I am not saying that is the best way to go about writing a novel. It is a way though. Again, you could read something into that. And again some political development of their time could have worked its way subtle into the story. But none of that means it was the overriding intention or even something that is all that important about the story. And I think being able to gauge the intent of the author is important (especially when you are examining works that were produced in a time period other than your own).

doctorbadwolf · Oct 20, 2018

Eltab said:
Completely remove? No. Minimize and become aware of, as when searching for objective truth? Yes.

Sure, but you’re still going to be influenced by what you believe in, no matter what.

Bawylie said:
I absolutely think it’s possible to completely remove those things and imagine something alien. I suppose that ability to imagine things that are very different is kind of a core component to fantasy. Leaving behind what you know is probably the start: “if things weren’t like this... they might be like THAT.”

Your entire mental framework is influenced by what you believe in.

dragoner · Oct 20, 2018

doctorbadwolf said:
Sure, but you’re still going to be influenced by what you believe in, no matter what. Your entire mental framework is influenced by what you believe in.

Yes, I think many people live in a insulated microcosm, that they rarely face another opinion, or if they do, they do not understand it. Which is where people are probably saying that they do not overtly put politics in; even though one could tell their political persuasion by the philosophies at play.

Bawylie · Oct 20, 2018

doctorbadwolf said:
Your entire mental framework is influenced by what you believe in.

I agree with that. But I don’t think the mental framework are boundaries. You can think outside the box, so to speak. And since you can do that, it does not necessarily follow that your plots or villains or what-have-yous must necessarily be informed by that framework.

Bedrockgames · Oct 20, 2018

dragoner said:
even though one could tell their political persuasion by the philosophies at play.

This is the part I find particularly suspect. Certainly the culture and environment you live in, will influence content. That doesn't mean people can deduce your political views just because there is a vague influence. Just because a GM includes a few elements that harken to real-world philosophies, that in no way gives me an indication of what the GM actually believes about them. The GM could be engaging in a deliberate thought exercise without really having any interest or investment in any of them. It is also very easy to misread a person's politics just judging by that kind of content. And I think it is extremely misguided to assume you can know their politics by trying to assess it based on the culture and environment they come out of. I watch and read a lot of stuff from sources outside my own culture. I think it is a big mistake to overplay the influence of that culture and not treat a given writer as an individual with their own views (and influences from outside sources). Sure they are a product of the culture but they are also an individual within it as well. I think in this conversation we are starting to reduce people to the paradigm they exist inside of. And I don't think I really see the point. I mean, yes, your culture has an influence. But why does it having an influence matter, if it isn't central or important to the work? Just because believe in X, it doesn't mean X is always this pervading thing any time I express myself. And just because I belong to a culture that believes X, it doesn't mean any time I handle X in a creative work that I am using it in the same way as the broader culture, or that I have any particular feeling at all about it. You can spend so much time focusing on X you miss that I am actually talking about Y. People are mistaking content for message it seems.

dragoner · Oct 20, 2018

Bedrockgames said:
Certainly the culture and environment you live in, will influence content. That doesn't mean people can deduce your political views just because there is a vague influence.

They influence your world-view, which in turn influences your politics. I'll give you that people are probably not self aware, but then again that's just re-stating they live in an insulated microcosm. Except for those of us who are from somewhere else, or are self aware, or have situational awareness, something; we can see.

Bedrockgames · Oct 20, 2018

dragoner said:
They influence your world-view, which in turn influences your politics. I'll give you that people are probably not self aware, but then again that's just re-stating they live in an insulated microcosm. Except for those of us who are from somewhere else, or are self aware, or have situational awareness, something; we can see.

You keep asserting that. But you haven't said anything to convince me.

Again, I think it is a mistake to look at someone from outside their own culture and assume you know how that culture influences their works and how their works reflect their beliefs. You are acting as if you have special access to this outsider or self aware perspective. No one is saying a person's culture doesn't influence their writing. We are questioning the assertion that this means a person's handling of villains and heroes in a game flows from their political beliefs. We are also questioning other peoples claims to know that person's worldview based on some setting details. The question is whether any of this influence has to have a meaningful impact on how your heroes and villains act. I don't think it does. I think people can create characters that don't express their political views, that are not meant to be political. And if the response to that is, everything is automatically political somehow, then again I think we are in the territory of expanding a term so much it has no real meaning anymore.

And I have to ask again, what is the ultimate point of this exercise? What conclusions/actions in and about gaming are we meant to draw from your assertions if we accept them? Are we meant to do anything differently because of them?

dragoner · Oct 20, 2018

Bedrockgames said:
But you haven't said anything to convince me.

Luckily, that is unimportant. You hang around alt-righters enough, you begin to think of their viewpoint as normal, I do not so I would notice that, capisce?