D&D 5E Shield Attacks and AC Bonus


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epithet

Explorer
You could have saved 3 paragrpahs of justification and just said I'm houseruling shields because I don't like how improvised weapon rules apply to shields. That's all I wanted to know.

No, Frog, I don't think I'm making a house rule for shields. The rule for Improvised Weapons is that "An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object)." I tried to explain, in those three paragraphs, how I conclude that the phrase "bears no resemblance to a weapon" does not apply to a shield, and that I think the shield, used as a weapon, should do damage as a mace.

Weapons on the list are, like most entries in the D&D rules, abstractions. Obviously in objective reality you can slash with a short sword or pierce with a long sword, but the D&D weapons list entries are more formal than objective (in the Platonic sense.) You may interpret the rule on Improvised Weapons to require the resemblance to be cosmetic, and that's fine--your ruling is totally valid in your game. My ruling, in my game, is that a resemblance can exist even between things which do not look alike, based on how they would be used as weapons. Hence my comparison between the edge of a shield and the flanges of a mace.

That's my interpretation of the Improvised Weapons rule, and my ruling for my games. The fact that you don't agree with it doesn't make it invalid, nor does it mean that I'm inventing a new "house" rule. There is a tendency here to insist that an interpretation of the rules which is different than the one held by the poster is contrary to the rule itself, and is therefore making up a new rule to contravene it. I'm totally in favor of house rules, but I make a very clear distinction between house rules and table rulings. I think that giving a shield used as a weapon 1d6 bludgeoning damage is a perfectly reasonable application of the published rules.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
No, Frog, I don't think I'm making a house rule for shields. The rule for Improvised Weapons is that "An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object)." I tried to explain, in those three paragraphs, how I conclude that the phrase "bears no resemblance to a weapon" does not apply to a shield, and that I think the shield, used as a weapon, should do damage as a mace.

Weapons on the list are, like most entries in the D&D rules, abstractions. Obviously in objective reality you can slash with a short sword or pierce with a long sword, but the D&D weapons list entries are more formal than objective (in the Platonic sense.) You may interpret the rule on Improvised Weapons to require the resemblance to be cosmetic, and that's fine--your ruling is totally valid in your game. My ruling, in my game, is that a resemblance can exist even between things which do not look alike, based on how they would be used as weapons. Hence my comparison between the edge of a shield and the flanges of a mace.

That's my interpretation of the Improvised Weapons rule, and my ruling for my games. The fact that you don't agree with it doesn't make it invalid, nor does it mean that I'm inventing a new "house" rule. There is a tendency here to insist that an interpretation of the rules which is different than the one held by the poster is contrary to the rule itself, and is therefore making up a new rule to contravene it. I'm totally in favor of house rules, but I make a very clear distinction between house rules and table rulings. I think that giving a shield used as a weapon 1d6 bludgeoning damage is a perfectly reasonable application of the published rules.

When your interpretation is so outlandish that you are claiming that a shield resembles a mace then it’s a house rule.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
When your interpretation is so outlandish that you are claiming that a shield resembles a mace then it’s a house rule.

When used as a weapon a shield does function much like a mace. You smash it into an opponent to deal blunt damage.

Unless you're trying to claim it has to match the appearance. But no-one's that outlandish.
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
When your interpretation is so outlandish that you are claiming that a shield resembles a mace then it’s a house rule.

You may find it outlandish. But having seen demonstrations on how historically accurate shields may have been used as weapons, I find this to be quite credible. As [MENTION=6796566]epithet[/MENTION] said, while its appearance may not resemble a club, its function when used as a weapon is quite similar.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
When used as a weapon a shield does function much like a mace. You smash it into an opponent to deal blunt damage.

Unless you're trying to claim it has to match the appearance. But no-one's that outlandish.

A kitchen knife resembles a great sword more than a shield resembles a mace. Do you also rule kitchen knives do 2d6 damage?
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
A kitchen knife resembles a great sword more than a shield resembles a mace. Do you also rule kitchen knives do 2d6 damage?

In form, yes, but not in function, which is more relevant to the conversation.

So while a kitchen knife resembles a mini Greatsword, functionally a shield is more likely to achieve similar effects of a Greatsword.
 
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Yunru

Banned
Banned
A kitchen knife resembles a great sword more than a shield resembles a mace. Do you also rule kitchen knives do 2d6 damage?
Wow. I guess I have to retract that "no-one's that outlandish statement."

A kitchen knife is a one-handed weapon used to stab or slash. You don't swing with your arm. It's nothing like a greatsword for that reason.

Now a shield? A shield is a large solid object held in one hand that you ram into your opponent by swinging your arm at them in order to bludgeon them. That's exactly what a mace does.
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Wow. I guess I have to retract that "no-one's that outlandish statement."

A kitchen knife is a one-handed weapon used to stab or slash. You don't swing with your arm. It's nothing like a greatsword for that reason.

Now a shield? A shield is a large solid object held in one hand that you ram into your opponent by swinging your arm at them in order to bludgeon them. That's exactly what a mace does.

Or a club. Why is it a mace instead of a club?
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
[MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION], it seems you have gotten hung up on the mace thing. I think what all [MENTION=6796566]epithet[/MENTION] was getting at was that since the edge of a shield can focus energy into a smaller space, much like the flanges of a mace, that it was not unreasonable to have a shield deal more damage than a 1d4 club. He made the comparison between a 1d6 damage club and a 1d8 damage mace, and stated that because the primary difference between the two is that the mace has those flanges that concentrate force, it was the reason that it deals more damage. Thus a shield, with a similar force concentrator, would deal more more damage (1d6) than a typical improvised weapon of similar size might deal (1d4).
 

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