Cost for an item of permanent enlarge?

From what I can tell, an item that grants permanent enlarge person (1st level spell) would only cost 2000gp. You get +2 Str, -2 Dex, +5 ft. reach, -1 to attacks and AC, and -4 to Hide. Now sure, this item isn't great for everyone, but imagine giving a spiked chain whirlwind attack warrior this, increasing his reach to 20 ft. Seems a bit good for just 2000gp, right?

RangerWickett said:

...but imagine giving a spiked chain whirlwind attack warrior this, increasing his reach to 20 ft.

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The guy that wants this is the Spiked-chain-combat-reflexes-improved-trip-monkey. I had a PC IMC who had the party cleric cast Enlarge person (from Str domain) on him, and the effects are scary.

As to the item though, the bonuses truly come to this : +0 to hit, +1 to damage (or possibly +2 w/ 2H wpn, depending on your str score), -2 AC, 2x your normal reach, -x to hide, based on new size, +4 to checks with size modifier (trip, disarm, grapple, etc), increased weapon damage die for melee/ projectile weapons (but not thrown weapons). This can be overpriced or underpriced depending on who uses it. If you set it at 4,000 (same as gaunt. +2 str), then pretty much every fighter wants it. If you set it at 16,000 (belt +4 str), then the damage-dealing types begin to wonder if the damage from +4str is better than the + size bonuses, but the Special Attack Monkeys still love it (+2 str = +1 modifier, plus +4 size modifier, equals +5 on most special attacks). I would set the item as a Belt (so no stacking w/ Belt o' G.S +4 or +6), and charge 16,000 for it. Just my take, and not an official ruling. By the RAW, you are correct at the 2k price tag. But remember that the item creation cost tables are only GM guidelines to help him figure the cost of a custom magic item (which this definitely is), so i guess that the 2k price is subjective as well.. oh well. Hope this helps.

Jeff

It certainly would be pretty awesome for combat.

You probably shouldn't wear it all the time - I'd imagine being enlarged is going to make most normal people freak out. Innkeepers probably aren't going to let you a room - stables, if you're lucky.

I'd give a player a warning - "I think that item might be very powerful at that price. Wonder why nobody builds them?"

If they decided to push ahead and build it without without doing any research, etc. Then I'd let them find out why.


Most likely a nasty little idea that cropped up in another system (Ars Magica) - That particular item has detrimental side effects (makes you shrink over time). And it's addictive.

You'd need to spend at least an extra XX,000 Gp designing a version without those drawbacks.

Or you could just pay a mage to permancy your enlarge person.... 450 gold for the spell itself, then another 2500 for the XP if you're asking an NPC, perhaps less if you have a wizard in the party and he's friendly.

RangerWickett said:

From what I can tell, an item that grants permanent enlarge person (1st level spell) would only cost 2000gp. You get +2 Str, -2 Dex, +5 ft. reach, -1 to attacks and AC, and -4 to Hide. Now sure, this item isn't great for everyone, but imagine giving a spiked chain whirlwind attack warrior this, increasing his reach to 20 ft. Seems a bit good for just 2000gp, right?

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Actually, it would cost 4000. Permanent duration items have their costs increased if the duration is less than 1 hour/level.

It still seems a bit inexpensive, but talk to your DM about it. After all, it's his say either way.

This needs repeating ... the formulas for magic items are *guidelines*. They do not work in all instances. If followed without tempering, they often result in unbalanced items.

Design the item you have in mind. Apply the formula. Then, look at items on the appropriate magic item tables with that price. Does your item seem to good in comparrison? If so, then jack up the price until it seems fair.

This is the *only* way to go if you want balanced items. Getting 'option reach' and extra damage permanentlyfor 2K or 4K gold is ridiculous, even 3with the AC and area occupied drawbacks. That ability is useful in every round of combat and has a significant effect on the battle. The price should be in the 10s of thousands of gold pieces ... I know my dwarven fighter would trade his ring of major elemental resistance (28,000 gp) for it ...

As jgsugden said, magic item prices are guidelines.

How much would I charge? Hmm... belt of giant strength +2 is 4000gp. Start there. Of course, the strength bonus is a size bonus, not enhancement, so double the price for that is 8,000... now you also get natural reach and increased die damage and bonuses to a bunch of special attacks.... this is hard to compute, but bigger damage dice is almost always +1 or 2 damage on average call that 4000. Reach is damn useful... call that 10,000. There are drawbacks, but they're pretty minimal for anyone who would actually want to use this thing and are easily balanced out by the bonuses to special attacks, so that sounds about good.

So... 22,000gp. I think that's fair and balanced. In general I don't bother with the item slot restrictions... I mean, what makes the belt slot more appropriate for strength than the shirt slot?

So, that's how I'd price it... but then again, I pretty much never go by what the book says, I base it on what exists, and what I would trade for it.

-The Souljourner

Since the thread was started by someone with way more posts than the rest of us combined and who writes homebrews and story hours, I think we can leave off the usual "they're just GUIDELINES!" rant. It's been stated enough times.

Anyway, IMO this is just yet another spell to add to the list of "Things That'd Be Broken If We Made It Unlimited/Continuous". It's a long list. Reach is a huge benefit. The AC/attack/hide penalties are minor. The larger equipment needed for your new size would be prohibitive IF the spell didn't increase your equipment with you, but it does. For many people, the +2 STR is easily worth the -2 DEX. So no, I would never let anyone have this at will for only 4000gp.

Issues like this are why, IMC, we long ago added two house rules:
> If you want an item that reproduces a spell in an unlimited or continuous fashion, it has to be a Ring or a Rod. All existing Wondrous items (other than the straight stat-boosting ones) that work this way are changed to 5/day.
> The minimum caster level for an item is the level needed to qualify for its Feat (wondrous 3, arms 5, ring 12, etc), and all effects on an item must have the same caster level.

So, unless you want to pay 24,000 gp for a CL 12 ring that casts Enlarge Person at will, you'll make do with 5 or fewer uses per day, each of which only lasts a few minutes. Far more manageable for the DM, too.

Spatzimaus said:

Since the thread was started by someone with way more posts than the rest of us combined and who writes homebrews and story hours, I think we can leave off the usual "they're just GUIDELINES!" rant. It's been stated enough times.

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2 points:

1.) He asked if we thought it was too much for 2,000 gp. The 'guideline' discussion falls directly out of that question. Yes, it is too cheap because it is a guideline number that fails to do its job.

2.) Other people read the thread. If a newbie read this thread and said, "Everyone says this thing is too strong for 2K GP! I bet I can slip it by my DM!", then our guideline conversation would be relevant to the DMs response of, "That seems too strong, where did you hear about it? What did the people on the internet think of it?"

I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but once a question is asked, a thorough answer is not out of line, even if the person asking the question is a net guru on the subject.

As jgsugden said, and Souljourner also said, and Spatzimaus warned us not to repeat -- new magic item formulas are just guidelines.

I'll quote Monte Cook ( http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly3.html ):

How do you figure Market Value?

That's really the trick, isn't it? Some days I look at Table 8-40 on page 242 of the DMG and wish it wasn't there at all. At these times, I wish the rule was simply, “Match your new item as closely as you can with an existing item, then give it a similar price.” That's really the ultimate pricing rule. It can get you into trouble (as it did with me and boots of striding and springing), but generally it will give you fewer headaches than using the table. At the very least, we should have called the table "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" rather than "Calculating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."
...
The most important thing to remember is, Table 8-40 doesn't determine prices. It suggests them. Don't say, "Wow, these shoes of continual improved invisibility sure are cheap." Do say, "Hmm, these formulas don't work when it comes to spells like improved invisibility." When someone asks me, "Can I really make an item that will cast cure light wounds at will, activated by a command word, for only 900 gp?"I now reply, "Only if your DM isn't paying attention."

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Byu the way, here's the same discussion as held last week: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78394