Thoughts On The Challenge Rating System

Odysseus · May 30, 2005

Two things.
First dragon CR were atifically lowered , on the grounds that if you know your fighting a dragon you know how dangerous they are. wotc logic not mine.

Second. The CR system is calculated based on what the iconic characters are capable of with equipment based on the funds per character level,as per the dmg. So if your having problems with the CR system, compare your party with the iconic characters and total up the value of the characters equipment , and see how they compare.

Upper_Krust · May 31, 2005

Hey all!

I find it strange that people still complain about Challenge Ratings 18 months after I solved all the problems associated with it...see the attached file. There is also an updated version in the Grim Tales book by Bad Axe Games which is probably more condensed and slightly easier to follow (though it doesn't include the Challenge Ratings for the entire Monster Manual and Epic Level Handbook which are in that file).

Hope that helps.

styker said:
But, for example a SOLAR or a BALOR... they are very strong, CR 23 and 20... a fighter even with bows, potions and magic items will never be as strong as a balor or solar of equal cr since the strategy doesn't count (the creature have inteligence and strategy too...)

The problem herein is that WotC mistakenly calculate Challenge Rating and Effective Class Level as the same thing for characters, but totally different things for monsters....anyway, its all solved in the attached pdf.

Sledge · May 31, 2005

Kerrick said:
No, they gain XP from an EL 23 encounter, which is 16,000 (divided by 4) as opposed to 12,000 for 2 CR 20 monsters.

You may wish to reread pg 37 of the DMG where it goes into detail about experience and how each monster is to be calculated individually.

boredgremlin · May 31, 2005

That must be a 3.5 change. I know in 3.0 they added em together. Anyway like a lot of people (in my experiance) I just skimmed the 3.5 one. Its just boring reading the same book over for the 4 or 5th time, especially for just a few minor changes.

rln · May 31, 2005

Heh...

In one of the first 3.0 adventures (Attack on Myth Drannor), there's an illithilich trapped in a tomb. The adventurers are meant to open the door and the monster, seeing an opening for escape, will mind blast the heroes and run for it.

Naturally, the situation as written is rather ineptly scripted. The monster has no henchmen, the only way out is through the adventurers and for some reason, it doesn't know that the heroes are coming!.

Our DM played it as written. We won the initiative, and dove into cover, which protected us against the paralysing mind blast; all except the barbarian, which charged it and dealt it a whopping 48HP damage before the illithilich let loose his mind blast (cone attack) - and the barbarian makes his save!

The next round, the barbarian powerattacked twice, and managed to get an AoO when the Alhoon tried to escape (or perhaps cast a spell, I don't remember which).

And thus the Alhoon, on paper a CR19 monster, was defeated pretty much single-handedly by a Level 7 half-orc barbarian.

Jack Simth · May 31, 2005

Did he get full XP? Do the XP tables even stretch that far?

Shin Okada · May 31, 2005

Felnar said:
Several people have mentioned that dragons CR's aren't accurate, but does anyone have a good way of adjusting their CR's.

"Make it famous" is the suggested way and it is working for me. In most adventure modules, True Dragons never appear without warning. In a nearby town, or from denizens of the dungeon, PCs hear about the dragon. Once the color is known, they can prepare the countermeasure against breath weapon. PC's will try to keep the buffing spells until they meat the dragon (as they know that they need the spells for sure). And Dragon's lair is usually not small and PCs can buff when entering it. Thus, encounter against dragon is not that much overpowering, while that will certainly let PCs expend a lot of resources.

S'mon · May 31, 2005

Felnar said:
Several people have mentioned that dragons CR's aren't accurate, but does anyone have a good way of adjusting their CR's.

I find adding +2 seems to work. Or for random dungeons keep the dragon CRs but double the XP award.

S'mon · May 31, 2005

Upper_Krust said:
The problem herein is that WotC mistakenly calculate Challenge Rating and Effective Class Level as the same thing for characters, but totally different things for monsters....anyway, its all solved in the attached pdf.

Hi Craig - looking at this again trying to understand it, you say "Challenge Ratings (CRs) are a measurement of power. There are two general principles regarding CR: firstly that it signifies a moderately challenging encounter for a party of 4-5 characters of the same power...."

You put a Great Wyrm Red at CR 62, so you appear to say that a Great Wyrm Red Dragon is a suitable challenge for a 62nd level party. Is that right? It seems unlikely. By your EL it's EL 24 which means by your definition of EL that it is equal in power to a group of 4 24th level PCs, which sounds plausible.

Am I right that this CR 62/EL24 dragon is actually equal to

1. 1 62nd level PC, or
2. 4 24th level PCs?

I can see those both being true; but surely it's not a moderate challenge for 4 62nd level PCs?

S'mon · May 31, 2005

But I don't understand how under the U_K system a young black dragon can be CR 11 but EL 14???

Thoughts On The Challenge Rating System

Odysseus

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Upper_Krust

Hero

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Sledge

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boredgremlin

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rln

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Jack Simth

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Shin Okada

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S'mon

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S'mon

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