Thoughts On The Challenge Rating System

[helium3]

Have any other DM's come to the conclusion (as I have) that the CR's for monsters given in the various books are in many cases too high? I know that the DMG says that an encounter of the appropriate level for an average party that's adequately outfitted should consume about 20% of the daily resources of the party. While this may technically be true, I've also noticed that encounters like that are typically rather boring, in that even when I attempt to set the encounter up with flavor to heighten the drama, it still ends up being pretty boring because there is very little sense of risk. Perhaps I'm just a poor DM, but I rather think that the problem is the built in expectations of the gaming system. In essence, the system seems to assume that your players aren't going to know the game very well, and therefore aren't going to take advantage of the wide variety of strategic options available to them. I've pretty much had to start giving NPC's normal PC stats and select NPC's PC levels of equipment. I've had to advance monsters by a couple of hit-dice but not adjust the CR or put them up against monsters that are a couple of CR higher than normal. Also, I should point out that I didn't see this problem so much at lower levels, but I'm really starting to see it at higher levels. My party is at an average EL of around six and a half. Perhaps I'm just experiencing the breakdown that supposedly starts to occur at higher levels, but it seems a bit early for that.

Any thoughts?

 

[Darmanicus]

More XP fer us baby!

 

[Crothian]

CR is an estimate. No two parties are crated equal. If you use point buy or dice rolling methods that generate higher then average stats, the CR system will become a little less accurate. If the characters min max a lot, the same will happen. THe trick is to know your party and tyo be abble to tell if they are powerful enough above the norm to casue you to start reducing CRs by a bit.

 

[the Jester]

It really varies. My epic group had a helluva lotta trouble with 2 spiffed up CR 23 lurker aboves over the last few games, and the party is large and in charge.

 

[styker]

The rules about CR are strange... for example: the rule says that a fighter 20 is a CR 20, and the tarrasque is a CR 20 too, so... you gains the same xp for the fighter and the tarrasque... o you think this is right? i think npc's doesn't work with the CR rules, since they are 1/4 of a apropriate CR...

 

[Crothian]

The rules about CR are strange... for example: the rule says that a fighter 20 is a CR 20, and the tarrasque is a CR 20 too, so... you gains the same xp for the fighter and the tarrasque... o you think this is right? i think npc's doesn't work with the CR rules, since they are 1/4 of a apropriate CR...

Ya, its about right. The fighter will have lots of magical items as well as a greater intelligence to use strategy. In many cases the fighter with be tougher to defear then the tarrasque

 

[lonesoldier]

It really does depend on your characters/players. There is a very good chance that they will be better equipped (offensive and strategy-wise) than most critters. My players tend to min/max and use every single offical book/magazine they can get their hands on, so I usually throw stronger things there way.

Another idea would be to use the flat Xp system detailed in Unearthed Arcana, I have yet to use it myself, so could not tell you if it is balanced.

 

[Odysseus]

Once your away from low levels, the party mix has a great impact on how difficult the encounter is.
I was in a campaign where the party was a psion, a barbarian, a wizard/ranger and a fighter/sorcerer. Because we all had fighter levels in one class or another encounters with lots of low levels melee monsters were a walk over. But because we we're so multiclased encounter against a single monster could be a struggle.
Although a do agree to a point. Some encounters at low levels aren't threatning and use up resources. But once you get into high level encounters everythings threatning.

 

[boredgremlin]

Ya, its about right. The fighter will have lots of magical items as well as a greater intelligence to use strategy. In many cases the fighter with be tougher to defear then the tarrasque

Nah i dont think so. No amount of magical items are going to give that fighter a chance in hell toe to toe with a tarrasque. For one thing it has an average of 858 HP. That fighter is have around 20d10+120 (+6 CON)= 215.
The fighters BAB is 20/15/10/5. Even high strength magic and feats arent gonna push it past 30 or so unless your in a rediculously high magic game. The tarrasque has a bite +57, and 2 horns +52, 2 claws +52 and a tail slap +52. All from the book.
The fighters AC is gonna be somthing like this. AC 10 (base)+13 (Mithral fullplate+5)=23,+7 (large steel shield+5)=30, +5 (ring of protection+5)=35, +5 (dex, dodge feat)=40. So the tarrasque only misses him on a 1. Add 10 more AC from spells and the total is 50. Even with its worst attacks its only needs an 8.
The tarrasques AC is 35. The fighter needs to roll a 5/10/15 and then a 20 to hit it. And the fighter only has 4 attacks against the T's 6 all of which are likely to hit.
Figuring the DR of 15/epic. Most 20th level fighters could barely hurt it even with a hit. Then there is SR 32 and regeneration 40. 40 people!!! That thing would beat down the 20th level fighter in around 3 or 4 rounds. He has no chance at all.

Yes CR's suck. Some are too high and some are way to low. I just look at the monster and if its about a tough as a PC I give it CR equal to its HD. Maybe a little more. So the 48HD tarrasque in my campaign has a CR of 50. Dragons too are grossly misrepresented by thier CR. If the DM plays the dragon up to its intelligence and uses all of its specail abilities it would probably massacre a party of equal CR. So they also get full CR just like PC's.

 

[Crothian]

Nah i dont think so. No amount of magical items are going to give that fighter a chance in hell toe to toe with a tarrasque.

You're right, but that's not what the CR means

Yes CR's suck. Some are too high and some are way to low..

Yes some are too high and some are too low, but that doesn't mean the system sucks. It is an art to figure out CRs not a science.