Thoughts On The Challenge Rating System

[Kerrick]

Yes some are too high and some are too low, but that doesn't mean the system sucks. It is an art to figure out CRs not a science.

It says in the ELH that developing epic spells is an art, and look how that came out...

I think WotC says that because they were too lazy to codify a real system. Upper Krust has made a pretty good job of rendering CRs a science, and it's a good deal more accurate than the MM - on average, you multiply the existing CRs by 1.5.

A single level 20 fighter is a CR 20 encounter. So that one level 20 character is supposed to use up 20% of the other parties resources? Not likely.

You're confusing CR and EL, as Shin indirectly points out (and Philip explains a bit more clearly. A Ftr 20 just walking in the plain, with standard equipment, would likely be an EL 20 encounter. The same fighter in close quarters, or a similar situation where he can take advantage of the terrain, would be higher (say EL 22-23).

They gain EXP from two CR 20 creatures (divided by 4).

No, they gain XP from an EL 23 encounter, which is 16,000 (divided by 4) as opposed to 12,000 for 2 CR 20 monsters.

I spanked an EL 4 party left and right with a CR 3 crysmal. Watch out for those at-will powers.

On the other hand, today (at a higher EL) they defeated a CR 4 jann in under half a round of combat, but got their butts handed to them by a CR 5 elemental.

And this just serves to point out that, all other things being equal, luck will always step in an take a hand in matters. A party could use the best tactics, have good characters and spell choices, but if they don't get the rolls and the DM does, they're going to lose.

 

[moritheil]

And this just serves to point out that, all other things being equal, luck will always step in an take a hand in matters. A party could use the best tactics, have good characters and spell choices, but if they don't get the rolls and the DM does, they're going to lose.

Yes. The rolling of 1s at inopportune times can prove catastrophic.

But I also think the DR 5/- of the elemental, as well as its 10' reach, made a big difference.

It's funny, because they fought a troll previously and took it out without much trouble.

 

[Philip]

But I also think the DR 5/- of the elemental, as well as its 10' reach, made a big difference.

Our party of five 10th lvl guys fought an Elder Earth Elemental (CR 11) and we had a hell of a time defeating it.

Why? DR 10/- and a party composed of a Monk (insufficient damage to penetrate the DR), a Rogue (sneak attack useless), a rapier-wielding swashbuckler-like Fighter (crit's don't work, has no Power Attack, does 1d6+6 damage), a Cleric (insufficient damage to penetrate DR) and my Paladin/Sorcerer.

My Sorcerer had to do almost all of the damage to the Earth Elemental himself. The Cleric had two spells that did some damage, but after that it was just Fireball after Fireball while the rest of the party just stood between the Sorcerer and the Earth Elemental. Doing an average damage of 21 points per Fireball and the elemental having 228 hp. it was a long fight....

That was one encounter that cost us 80% of our resources and was potentially lethal for multiple party members, just because of our particular party composition.

DM's should take always take such things into consideration.

 

[Oryan77]

I think CR is assuming a party is prepared for that encounter. I have a hell of a time balancing my encounters because it all depends on how well I DM the NPC's in a fight, how much of the party can defeat DR and SR vs that critter, and how the dice roll.

In a single session I've had the party spank a tough encounter early on and then get a whooping from an easy encounter later on. This has happened in 2 different sessions, the first time resulting in a PC death from an "easy" encounter.

Situations like low level flying creatures vs a party that isn't built well for ranged combat and has no air support can throw the CR out of wack.

 

[S'mon]

I think CR is assuming a party is prepared for that encounter.

Some of them clearly assume that - eg dragon CRs. Whereas PC-class level = CR doesn't work if the party is prepped, it only really works if the NPCs are ambushing the PCs. Most of the CRs assume "You open the door - roll for initiative" as far as I can tell.

 

[Kerrick]

I think CR is assuming a party is prepared for that encounter. I have a hell of a time balancing my encounters because it all depends on how well I DM the NPC's in a fight, how much of the party can defeat DR and SR vs that critter, and how the dice roll.

Right near the EL tables, there's a little table for adjusting the encounter EL - if the party had a really hard time of it, you can bump it up 1 or 2; if it was really easy, you can drop it 1 or 2, and thus adjust the XP accordingly.

 

[Kapture]

While this may technically be true, I've also noticed that encounters like that are typically rather boring, in that even when I attempt to set the encounter up with flavor to heighten the drama, it still ends up being pretty boring because there is very little sense of risk.

Forgive me if I have this wrong, but it sounds like you're assuming every party of four level characters should only be facing EL 4 encounters.

Some encounters should be lower level, some higher (especially climactic encounters), to provide a sense of danger. The DMG even provides a ratio of how many encounters out of 13 should be of a level equal, above, or below party level.

 

[Kapture]

Nah i dont think so. No amount of magical items are going to give that fighter a chance in hell toe to toe with a tarrasque.

A CR 20 isn't meant to be equal to a 20th level fighter. It's meant to be equal to a 20th level party: 4 20th level characters. That would give a Tarrasque a 75% chance of kicking your average tank's butt, I would guess.

 

[shilsen]

A CR 20 isn't meant to be equal to a 20th level fighter. It's meant to be equal to a 20th level party: 4 20th level characters. That would give a Tarrasque a 75% chance of kicking your average tank's butt, I would guess.

Wrong. A CR 20 is supposed to be a balanced encounter for a four person 20th level party, which (using the definition of balanced encounter in the D&D) means that it should use up about 20% of their resources and have literally no chance of killing any of them. A 20th lvl fighter (or wizard, or cleric, etc.) is CR 20.

 

[Oryan77]

The DMG even provides a ratio of how many encounters out of 13 should be of a level equal, above, or below party level.

I've always had a problem with that logic from the book. It seems like it's assuming all the PC's are doing is a dungeon crawl where you'll have one fight after another. When I'm DM'ing a city adventure or a wilderness treck, the PC's might only have 1 fight a day in 1 real days session. I have to make it challenging or the fight will be boring. Once you've played 3 sessions with 3-4 challenging fights, the PC's can already gain enough xp from those CR's to gain a level if you use standard XP. This system doesn't even concider if you give bonus RP xp or anything.

That's been a thorn in my side since I switched to 3e. I just give out half xp now and bonus xp isn't very much at all.