werecorpse
Adventurer
I suspect Roman soldiers used flotation devices an navy seals use flotation vests - and so can people in armour.
D&D 5E Swimming in Armor
- Thread starter LordEntrails
- Start date
I suspect Roman soldiers used flotation devices an navy seals use flotation vests - and so can people in armour.
Flamestrike
Legend
You can make it a complication in combat without setting a DC12 just to swim in calm water.
Most PCs are carrying a crap ton of stuff. Getting pushed in the water in plate mail while carrying a greatsword should carry a Swim check.
Swimming with a sword in one hand and a shield strapped to the other? While in chain mail? We can talk 'check needed to swim' at this point.
'Who is carrying the 2000sp from the last hoard? You? Ok 40 coins to a lb... thats 50lbs or around 20 kilos of metal. Actually... whats your total encumbrance mate?"
Also, your wizard with a spellbook or spell components? Get them wet. Watch the look on your Wizards face when getting pushed into a river wrecks his spellbook, and he realises he doesnt have another one. His bat guano for fireball? Also wrecked.
Also, are we on a boat? The biggest risk to falling overboard is the boat is moving. Usually a lot faster than you can swim. A hell of a lot faster. Wave goodbye...
Or just state (the few times water rocks up) that it has a serious current/ undertow.
Yeah mate I get that. Im just saying there are more ways to make a water hazard a challenge/ risk to your players than setting an arbitrary swim DM for calm water.
Uller
Adventurer
Did he say it was calm water? I believe he is talking about a river. His intent is that falling in the water (presumably during combat or some other challenge) is a setback. A DC 12 swim check works well. Someone with a good athletics bonus will be fine (disadvantage or not). Some one with no bonus might have a lot of trouble getting to where they want to be without help. No one is going to die just from one or two failed swim checks.
I don't believe Australia is the only place on Earth where people spend a good deal of time in the water. I used to spend a good deal of time on the white water of the Youghiogheny and Cheat rivers (last time I was there a guide company offered me a job). Without a floatation device, going into some water (even water that appears calm) can be very dangerous for nonswimmers. Getting back onto a raft or boat from in the water requires a good deal of skill or help.
In my PbP game my players just hit a water challenge in their keelboats. A few characters wpund up in the water including the pilot of on of the boats. It took a little team work to get everyone bakc on board and undamaged by the rocks the current was sweeping them over. Lots of different checks and decisions to avoid draining resources. Isn't that what a hazard should do?
Funny thing is, I tried that on a few occasions - had extra wine skins I had inflated with air. DM decided all of them had been punctured in combat because I had been hit. Once.
Then again this was in a living campaign and the guy just never liked me from the first game even before I said a word. So maybe I just have an evil twin somewhere that tormented him.
werecorpse
Adventurer
Funny thing is, I tried that on a few occasions - had extra wine skins I had inflated with air. DM decided all of them had been punctured in combat because I had been hit. Once.
Then again this was in a living campaign and the guy just never liked me from the first game even before I said a word. So maybe I just have an evil twin somewhere that tormented him.
Ok a "rocks fall, you die DM" you can't do much about that. Did he always make water and wine skins burst during combat? I think not.
Equally you can't get too worked up against people wanting a little realism in the game because you had had a couple of jerk DM's.
I know this is a bit off point but I like that water has problems I can relate to - and I like when people try and solve them rather than demand that because they are "heroes" they should be able to heroically ignore them. If a player of mine removed their armour OR came up with some reasonable solution like a flotation device I'd say great, you have overcome the obstacle now let's move on. But I find the trivialisation of water to be a cheap way to deal with a thing that can be overcome with thought by the players but shouldn't just be ignored.
virtually naked people are buoyant in water because they displace a weight of water about equal to their weight (Archimedes says so) because we are basically bags of water. The upward force (buoyancy) is equal to the weight of water they displace and that counteracts the downward force of gravity. Plate would displace only a few pounds of water IMO so would add a major downward force as would many other things.
Personally I think a wizard in robes would be in deep trouble too. I remember a story a few years ago of a lady who wanted a photo of her in her wedding dress floating in water. The shot took a while to compose, the dress became waterlogged and she was dragged under.
But that's reality, D&D is a game and the fun factor is more important.
(I'm sorry I looked for the proposed swimming rules we were meant to be considering but must have missed them)
All opinions are based on our experiences and frame of reference aren't they?
I'm ok with penalizing people who haven't stripped down before a swim. Disadvantage on checks for anyone carrying more than absolute minimum makes sense. I don't personally think it's worth trying to figure out all the variables that should be taken into consideration, but that's just me.
I get that D&D is not realistic. For example there's no reason my fighter would be wearing armor when going to the bar. But it's also not realistic that someone that is practically naked and with the same level of training has as good an AC as the guy in the tin can.
The problem I have is when people situationally apply penalties for people wearing armor because it's "realistic". It just leads to ever more dex based builds which IMHO is boring. YMMV.
EDIT: Or maybe I'm just a cranky old man. Entirely possible.
LordEntrails
Hero
So, first of all, I started off this discussion talking about the effects of armor on swimming. Many good points were made about armor not being the only consideration. So, I've changed the suggested advice/ruling I intend to make. As it stands currently:
"The published rules for swimming may feel inadequate in situations that may occur during these encounters. These guidelines are to help DM’s make rulings if these situations arise.
Characters needing to swim in the Silverthorne can do so with a DC 12 Strength (Athletics) check. In some situations, these checks may be modified, characters that need to make swim checks that can be considered at disadvantage for these checks may include those; wearing armor that impose disadvantage to stealth checks, carrying objects weighing more than 50% of their carrying capacity, holding a shield, or wearing things such as full robes."
So you know the setting/assumptions about when this ruling would be appropriate; The characters are on a boat, in combat, on a mid-sized river with a current of about 2mph. They probably are not carrying all their equipment as it is likely to be stowed on the boat somewhere.
I need to add a sentence or two about asphyxiation, because as made obvious by the discussion here, many people assume a single failed save would indicate death or drowning. That is not the case per the rules or this suggested ruling.
The other effects of water, such as destroying a spell book, spell components, or doing other things that water does, are not addressed. And though I could address them, I don't see a reason to do so. I've never seen a published adventure make such recommendations nor have I ever seen any rulebook make such rules. Apparently, for most gamers, such considerations are not part of the fun or are left totally up to the DM to institute as desired..
So, understanding the situation the characters are in, understanding the intent of the ruling (to increase fun by adding diverse considerations), keeping the ruling simple to use, and adding an acceptable level of verisimilitude;
How does the suggested ruling sound?
"The published rules for swimming may feel inadequate in situations that may occur during these encounters. These guidelines are to help DM’s make rulings if these situations arise.
Characters needing to swim in the Silverthorne can do so with a DC 12 Strength (Athletics) check. In some situations, these checks may be modified, characters that need to make swim checks that can be considered at disadvantage for these checks may include those; wearing armor that impose disadvantage to stealth checks, carrying objects weighing more than 50% of their carrying capacity, holding a shield, or wearing things such as full robes."
So you know the setting/assumptions about when this ruling would be appropriate; The characters are on a boat, in combat, on a mid-sized river with a current of about 2mph. They probably are not carrying all their equipment as it is likely to be stowed on the boat somewhere.
I need to add a sentence or two about asphyxiation, because as made obvious by the discussion here, many people assume a single failed save would indicate death or drowning. That is not the case per the rules or this suggested ruling.
The other effects of water, such as destroying a spell book, spell components, or doing other things that water does, are not addressed. And though I could address them, I don't see a reason to do so. I've never seen a published adventure make such recommendations nor have I ever seen any rulebook make such rules. Apparently, for most gamers, such considerations are not part of the fun or are left totally up to the DM to institute as desired..
So, understanding the situation the characters are in, understanding the intent of the ruling (to increase fun by adding diverse considerations), keeping the ruling simple to use, and adding an acceptable level of verisimilitude;
How does the suggested ruling sound?
Uller
Adventurer
I'd change "full robes" to "heavy, restrictive or easily water logged clothing". Leave it up to the DM who meets that criteria.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using EN World mobile app
Sent from my SCH-I535 using EN World mobile app
DM's Guide: Swimming is DC10 once per hour to avoid a level of Exhaustion.
You're making regular swimming harder. It's your call to make, but I wouldn't do that bit.
The Old Crow
Explorer
To be fair, it is swimming in the Silverthorne that is DC 12, not swimming in general. It looks like a specific (that particular river) beats general(water at large) type of thing.
