How Did I Become a Grognard?

I

Immortal Sun

Guest
I would never use a smartphone for a character sheet. Even the biggest ones are too small for my visual comfort. Yes, even turned sideways.

The only use I've ever really had of this was 4E's "character summary" cards, which you can translate to any edition, but it's not dramatically easier than say, having a brief version of everyone's stats on a 3x5 card, and the latter may be easier to view multiple cards simultaneously. (I paper-clamp them to my DM screen)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
It's funny because it's true.... :) I fished them out the other day just so I could see if it was true, and indeed, I have three dice left still from my Moldvay Basic box and my first edition Gamma World boxes... and most of the people I work with currently were born after 1985...

I’m wit’cha!

I still have my purple, DIY coloring, pointy edged die set from 1977. I even know where they are!
 

Jack Daniel

dice-universe.blogspot.com
It's always important to remember that originally, prior to the linguistic drift that led to their present meanings, grognard was the opposite of munchkin. Grognards played war-games of all sorts—Avalon Hill hex & chit games, Napoleonics and other miniatures games like Chainmail, and the new category of fantasy war-games like Dungeons & Dragons and its imitators. And they grumbled, grumbled, grumbled about children—not college kids, but ankle-biting high-school age munchkins—coming into the hobby because of D&D and . . . and . . . having the temerity to be there and play D&D, without showing any interest in Napoleonics! (The horror!)

So remember: if you grumble about kids these days with their newfangled games ruining your oldfangled games, you're a grognard; but there's always an even more oldfangledlier game that you ruined too, you snot-nosed little munchkin!
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer

I have those dice!

And for the OP - I’d say you disqualified yourself from being a grognard by NOT using theater of the mind.

Oh, we had minis. But battlemats? Grids? Bah! That didn’t start until 2.5e. If a measurement needs to be made it’s with string or a tape.

But really the minis were to look cool, not to turn D&D combat into a board game. Theater of the mind is the real old school way (and I’m happy it’s made a comeback).
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Oh, we had minis. But battlemats? Grids? Bah! That didn’t start until 2.5e. If a measurement needs to be made it’s with string or a tape.

Speak for yourself. My first exposure to gridded battlemats in D&D was in the late 1970s. It was dual sided- squares on one, hexes on the other. No string & tape- that was for Chainmail.

I’m curious, though- what do you mean by 2.5E? Don’t recognize the nomenclature.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Speak for yourself. My first exposure to gridded battlemats in D&D was in the late 1970s. It was dual sided- squares on one, hexes on the other. No string & tape- that was for Chainmail.

I’m curious, though- what do you mean by 2.5E? Don’t recognize the nomenclature.

We had those mats too, and I had some cardboard pieces for laying out dungeons that were 10’ x 10’ squares (with 4 5’ flagstones), but the rules weren’t centered around squares and such yet. They acted more as scenery and visual aids than a direct tie to mechanics.

I call the Combat & Tactics/Skills & Powers era of 2e 2.5e (as do others) because it altered the game significantly and was a clear precursor to 3e and did introduce squares, etc.

The main difference is that prior to that gridded combat was not the norm, and didn’t define the mechanics of D&D combat. After that point we started counting squares, debating diagonals, facing, flanking, altering dimensions to odd pixelated shapes instead of by regular shapes and dimensions, and moved toward the current system where everybody else stands still while you move and complete all of your actions.

Even though we had the minis and visual aids, things were still more of a theater of the mind approach.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Not digging my books out at 2:20AM, but as I recall, the AD&D Rules included info on square and hex facing and determining who was in front, to the side, or to the rear of a given character. If you used those rules- as we did- even if you’re doing ToTM, you’re still internalizing at least an implied grid.
 

pemerton

Legend
The AD&D DMG (published 1979) has the following entry on p 69:

Number Of Opponents Per Figure:
Physical size and space will dictate limitation upon the number of opponents able to engage a single figure in melee. If Official ADVANCED DUNGEONS 8 DRAGONS miniature figures are used to represent the creatures involved in a melee, then these miniatures will dictate the number of opponents which can be involved. Beware of using other fantasy miniature figures, as most of them are not designed to the specific scale and do not conform to the standards of the MONSTER MANUAL (or
even necessarily conform to 25mm scale!). In other cases use the following rule of thumb:

1. If the single figure is size S, 4 size M or 2 size L figures are all that can attack it under optimum conditions during any single round. 6 size S figures can attack it, however, space permitting.

2. If the single figure is size M, it can be attacked by a maximum of 8 size S opponents, 6 size M, or 4 size L.

3. If the single figure is size L, a maximum of 12 size S, 8 size M, or size L figures can engage it at one time.

Modifiers are impossible to detail fully, as they include the physical circumstances prevailing at the time. It is obvious that a figure in a narrow passage or in a corner can be attacked only from a limited front. Similarly, the shape of the single figure and the attackers will be a factor, as a giant snake has more body space subject to attack than does a giant, unless the attackers are able to fly or otherwise attack the entire vertical surface of the giant. Any long-bodied creature has more area open to attack, and wide-bodied creatures, or those which employ some natural body weaponry which requires contact with the opponent, will be more restricted with respect to the number of attackers possible, viz. how many constrictor snakes can effectively attack an opponent? Two basic grid systems are shown below, one with hexagons, one with squares. These grids demonstrate how multiple opponents engage a single figure. . . .

To determine the number of opponents which can attack the single defender, use squares or hexes of one inch per face for 25 mm scale, or you may simply view the illustrations used above and mentally visualize the situation.​

The four diagrams that are provided ("diagonal" hexes, "square" hexes, diagonal squares, square squares) show how 6 attackers (for hexes) or 8 attackers (for squares) can surround a single figure.

The text makes it clear that both minis on grids and "theatre of the mind" (ie mentally visualising the situation) are contemplated as approaches.

Rolemaster books (mid-to-late 80s) contemplated the use of hexes for combat positioning; from memory it's also a feature of DragonQuest. And I'm sure other systems in the 70s/80s features it. (Eg Classic Traveller (1977) defaults to "bands" which can be tracked on lined paper, "us[ing] cardboard markers or cast metal miniatures to represent the characters", but the rules suggest that a group may use squares or hexes if they want to have more tactical manoeuvring (Book 1, p 29).)

I never used squares or tokens until I GMed 4e D&D, but I was familiar with the idea from my first encounters with RPGs (which for me was Traveller).

EDIT: cross-posted with [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION].
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
That’s not cross-posting, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] , that’s a post quoting stuff I hadn’t looked at in years and only vaguely remembered existing. Thenkyew fer dewinit.

The fact that they even mention mini scale compatibility in that language is telling. Definite not a ToTM concept there.

Still, as you point out, that’s still supported by the rules, too. My first game ever was ToTM- we all had minis, but they were just used as rough approximations of what was going on. Giving clarity. And that was the bulk of my experience until @2 years later.

When I joined my longest-running group- 1984-2016- we mixed the two pretty freeely. The major battles were always on a map, though.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top