D&D Beyond: Shadar-Kai

Azzy · Mar 11, 2018

variant said:
Lolth has been a god since Deities & Demigods in 1980.

Sorta, not exactly.

She, along with other demon lords (and similar beings, like slaad lords, elemental princes, the unique dragons, and archdevils) are treated as lesser gods (as per page 105). So, I suppose if you consider Lolth a goddess, then all demon lords, archdevils, etc. are gods by the same token. Just keep in mind, that though Lolth is treated as a lesser goddess mechanically, throughout her description, she is always referred to as "demoness", "demon lord", or "Demon Queen".

variant · Mar 11, 2018

Demon or god, it makes little difference. Gods are basically one step above in power and the only thing that differentiates them is that the latter can grant powers. None of the D&D gods have any real dominion over anything except their own pocket dimension, similar to some more powerful demons. The 'domains of power' they grant clerics aren't really representative of any real cosmological dominion over any specific thing. For example, magic exists throughout the cosmology, but there's one god of magic in Faerun, and another in Oerth. Neither control magic outside of their own world, and yet these are 'greater gods'. In comparison, there's Corellon which is not only the head of the elven pantheon across multiple worlds, but also the god of 'elven magic'. He's in the same 'greater god' category as Boccob and Mystra.

D&D gods are basically glorified humans (or demihumans) with much greater power, much as they are in typical polytheistic religions and it comes with all the trappings.

SkidAce · Mar 11, 2018

Demons and their influence have always been a form of corruption in my campaign.

So I always figured Lolth (Loltharanea Daemonis) got corrupted, and is one of the more famous (only?) of the Seldarine to have done so.

So she became demonic. Besides, my druas (dark) elves worship various major demonic entities (Grazz't, Frz Urblu) or minor demonic entities (Nhakhramat, Tenebrous, Torog) depending on the tribe.

Hence the eternal war between elven races, the druas turned from the light and became corrupted.

Azzy · Mar 11, 2018

My annoyance with Lolth as a fallen Seldarine is that prior to Demihuman Deities, she's always described as a demon with no hint of any fallen background. So it just feels hamfisted, and takes away from drow as demon worshipers. This is compounded and that drow were not exclusively Lolth-worshipers, originally—as the 1e D&DG entry for Lolth points out, "The dark elves worship demon lords from the Abyss. The best known example is the worship of the Demon Queen Lolth.".

.

Yaarel · Mar 12, 2018

Lolth and Raven Queen as an origin for drow and shadarkai seems too similar in my eyes. Its like every kind of elf got bitten by a radioactive spider.

SkidAce · Mar 12, 2018

Azzy said:
My annoyance with Lolth as a fallen Seldarine is that prior to Demihuman Deities, she's always described as a demon with no hint of any fallen background. So it just feels hamfisted, and takes away from drow as demon worshipers. This is compounded and that drow were not exclusively Lolth-worshipers, originally—as the 1e D&DG entry for Lolth points out, "The dark elves worship demon lords from the Abyss. The best known example is the worship of the Demon Queen Lolth.".

.

I'm agreeing with you....drow worship demons, lolth among others.

I just dont mind her being...corrupted..as I term it in my campaign.

SkidAce · Mar 12, 2018

Vault of the Drow said:
These arachnids are pets and friends of the Drow, and as symbols of the deity of the Dark Elves, they are often fed prisoners or slaves no longer useful to the Drow. Because of this relationship they do not molest the Dark Elves, but any creatures with them are always food for the ever-hungry spiders, so they quickly act to gain such meals. The spiders are in great fear of the vampire Belgos and his demon mistress, for this pair will occasionally taunt the spiders, or carry one off to sacrifice to the demoness Lolth...

Hmm spiders are the "SYMBOL" of the deity of the dark elves...the demoness Lolth.

Seems they were kinda interchangeable on her status even then.

Edit: however, they definately call her (the one encountered in the Vault) a demoness in the stat block. "but she also appears as a exquisitely beautiful female dark elf"

gyor · Mar 13, 2018

Yaarel said:
Lolth and Raven Queen as an origin for drow and shadarkai seems too similar in my eyes. Its like every kind of elf got bitten by a radioactive spider.

Or a radio active raven.

Personally I like the Dark Seldarine. I wonder if the Raven Queen will just be the first in a Shadow Seldarine between the light and the dark.

Wrathamon · Mar 14, 2018

I liked that she was a demon that had worshippers and that gave her divinity. Turned her into a lesser god. Orcus had his death cults for example. She appears as a dark elf, but her true from was the demon spider. That is how I remembered it from the 70s and early 80s. Orcus, lloth, demogorgon, tiamat, etc.

This is a nice creation myth/story, but I agree the Raven Queen and Lolth are stepping on each other toes a bit.

gyor · Mar 15, 2018

Wrathamon said:
I liked that she was a demon that had worshippers and that gave her divinity. Turned her into a lesser god. Orcus had his death cults for example. She appears as a dark elf, but her true from was the demon spider. That is how I remembered it from the 70s and early 80s. Orcus, lloth, demogorgon, tiamat, etc.

This is a nice creation myth/story, but I agree the Raven Queen and Lolth are stepping on each other toes a bit.

The 5e story for the Raven Queen has her as a failed attempted mediator between Corellon and Lloth, so I don't see how she steps on Lloths toes.

Actual the 5e Elf mythology reminds me of some myths about Angels, with Corellon acting in the role of "God", Lloth as the rebellious Satan, and the Raven Queen and the Shadar Kai as the Angels of Neutrality, who refused to take sides and where in same cases said to have become the Fey.

D&D Beyond: Shadar-Kai

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ

variant

Adventurer

SkidAce

Legend

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ

Yaarel

He Mage

SkidAce

Legend

SkidAce

Legend

gyor

Legend

Wrathamon

Adventurer

gyor

Legend

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