D&D Beyond: Shadar-Kai

[Parmandur]

Interesting lore, but no idea how it applies to the Forgotten Realms where the Raven Queen isn't a thing or Nentir Vale where she is a full fledged God.

Based on the two videos, it seems that their story considers how this new fluff works with at least the Nentir Vale and Greyhawk, have to imagine that FR is addressed: though maybe no more than it was for Yuan-Ti lore in Volo's.

 

[Azzy]

20 years is pretty way back

Get off my lawn, you damn youngun'!

 

[Parmandur]

Get off my lawn, you damn youngun'!

In 1998, I had not played D&D and was barely a teenager.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

In 1998, I had not played D&D and was barely a teenager.

In 1998, I'd been running D&D for 10 years, myself.

I find the Llolth-as-demon angle, which is indeed from 1998 (when the FR was perhaps at it's worst, well, barring the insanity in 4E, I mean I like 4E but that stuff with the FR was just stupid), pretty uncompelling myself. It's kind of cliche and Christian-esque (Lucifer etc.), rather than having the mythic/mythological vibes a god vs god conflict has. It also doesn't really make a lot of sense, setting-wise.

Just seems like one of WotC (and TSR)'s many changes for the sake of change, rather than actual things that made the setting more exciting. Trying to leverage the Raven Queen (who is basically just a cool name and nothing else of substance) into settings like the FR is bit meh as well.

Of course I'm biased because I think the FR deity setup peaked before or shortly after the original Time of Troubles. Since then we've just increasing numbers of tacky or ludicrous gods and situations with gods in the FR - and it's not like the FR wasn't already borderline (well, more than borderline) tacky/trashy already, so it's just dragging it down further.

 

[Mouseferatu]

In 1998, I'd been running D&D for 10 years, myself.

I find the Llolth-as-demon angle, which is indeed from 1998

Wait, what? No. Lolth was created as a demon from the very first time she appeared. She wasn't a god at all until much later. Once they made her a god, they played around with various origins, but she was very much a demon lord--and not a god--at first.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Wait, what? No. Lolth was created as a demon from the very first time she appeared. She wasn't a god at all until much later. Once they made her a god, they played around with various origins, but she was very much a demon lord--and not a god--at first.

Sorry for using shorthand - I meant the "Lloth was a god then became a demon" angle. It doesn't really work and it's very quasi-Christian which seems completely inappropriate to the setting.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Sorry for using shorthand - I meant the "Lloth was a god then became a demon" angle. It doesn't really work and it's very quasi-Christian which seems completely inappropriate to the setting.

Ah. Gotcha.

There, we're entirely in agreement. I very much dislike the idea of her being a fallen-god-who-became-a-demon-who-became-a-god.

But then, I don't like the fact that she's a god at all. I liked her better as a demon lord. (I prefer Vecna, Tiamat, and Bahamut as non-deities, too.)

 

[variant]

Wait, what? No. Lolth was created as a demon from the very first time she appeared. She wasn't a god at all until much later. Once they made her a god, they played around with various origins, but she was very much a demon lord--and not a god--at first.

Lolth has been a god since Deities & Demigods in 1980.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But then, I don't like the fact that she's a god at all. I liked her better as a demon lord. (I prefer Vecna, Tiamat, and Bahamut as non-deities, too.)

Demon lord is reasonable, though the older I get, the less the distinction between demon lords and evil gods makes sense to me, and in particular I feel like, increasingly, we have all these gods who are "good" (I use hate quotes because some of them really aren't!), and who, because of that are full-on gods, never merely powerful beings from good-aligned planes and so on, and it doesn't really make sense.

Like, if Lloth is just a demon lord, then I feel like a bunch of minor "good" dieties should be like, angel lords or whatever (I honestly cannot remember the current terminology for angels in D&D).

 

[Mouseferatu]

Lolth has been a god since Deities & Demigods in 1980.

Well, I was all set to argue that, yes, she was a god in De&De, but not in Queen of the Demonweb Pits.

Except I just looked it up, and I'm wrong. While the module suggests not necessarily using her divine abilities as a lesser god, it does include them.

So apparently, I was incorrect in thinking she was initially portrayed solely as a demon lord, and was "upgraded" to a god later on. She's always been both.

I don't have to like it, but I do acknowledge it.