D&D 5E Planar Binding

Falling Icicle · Sep 18, 2014

I'm trying to figure out a way to use Planar Binding. Unlike older versions, the 5e PB doesn't summon a creature. It only binds one that is already there. The problem is that it has a 1 hour casting time. That means that even if you conjure an elemental and begin casting planar binding on it immediately, the elemental will still disappear 1 round before you can finish the planar binding spell, since conjured elementals only remain for 1 hour. One could gate a creature into a magic circle, I guess, but that requires a 9th level spell. I was hoping there was actually a way to use planar binding, a 5th level spell, without having to wait an additional 8 levels.

jadrax · Sep 18, 2014

I believe expanded summoning rules are one of the things expected to be in the DMG.

That said, it seems to suggest that creatures trapped in an Inverted Magic Circle cannot leave it for the duration, (2 hours if cast at 5th level), which you could read as overruling the duration of Conjure Elemental.

CapnZapp · Oct 10, 2016

Did we ever get an update on this?

As far as I am aware, there are no actual summoning rules anywhere. As in, general rules and not "whatever works for this one particular story".

By that I get how various adventures will simply invent whatever they need to feature summoned demons.

But here we're discussing it from a player character's perspective without the luxury of having any story. That is: can you summon and then bind a demon using only RAW at around 9th level when you get Planar Binding?

MechaTarrasque · Oct 10, 2016

CapnZapp said:
Did we ever get an update on this?

As far as I am aware, there are no actual summoning rules anywhere. As in, general rules and not "whatever works for this one particular story".

By that I get how various adventures will simply invent whatever they need to feature summoned demons.

But here we're discussing it from a player character's perspective without the luxury of having any story. That is: can you summon and then bind a demon using only RAW at around 9th level when you get Planar Binding?

I think your assumption is in error. In 5e, planar binding is supposed to be dependent on the there being a story. It is just like magic items--it is nice when you run across them but don't depend on it. Thus it is with planar binding--it is a nice tool when you run across an outsider, but in 5e, it isn't there for the wizard to cast in his/her rec room, at least until they get gate. I am not saying that is how it should be, but I think it is how it is meant to be.

Phazonfish · Oct 10, 2016

Wow, in that case PB is just terrible. If happening across a target was the only restriction it could be good but unreliable, but you have to stumble across a target AND find a way to get them to sit still for an hour? Magic circle wouldn't even help because you'd still need to hold them in a specific spot for 10 rounds to get it off.

Further drawbacks: Consumes 1000gp material component, takes a high level spell slot, only lasts a day, allows for a saving throw, even on a success the creature is allowed to twist the words of your commands

CapnZapp · Oct 10, 2016

Sorry [MENTION=6801226]MechaTarrasque[/MENTION] gonna agree with [MENTION=6855766]Phazonfish[/MENTION] here - you cannot call it good design to offer a spell that's designed to force outsiders to do your bidding, but not then ensure a reliable supply of such outsiders.

Any outsider that agrees to sitting still for a whole hour doesn't need to be bound. So that can't be the use case.

There must be a way to pacify a hostile outsider long enough to take control over it. That's what the discussion is about. If there are no such ways, then Planar Binding sucks.

And that assumes you can even find such an outsider. In every edition past, you could always conjure up your own. If that isn't possible in 5E, then Planar Binding sucks even more.

As for stories involving outsiders - if you don't need a spell to summon the monster, it's reasonable to expect you don't need one to bind it either. So what's the spell even for?

Perhaps there once was more support for summoning and binding of outsiders, but Planar Binding certainly isn't good enough on its own.

Right now, it all looks towards Planar Binding being essentially worthless unless we can come up with a way to arrange the conditions it requires. Have anyone tweeted the devs about how they suggest we use it?

FormerlyHemlock · Oct 10, 2016

Falling Icicle said:
I'm trying to figure out a way to use Planar Binding. Unlike older versions, the 5e PB doesn't summon a creature. It only binds one that is already there. The problem is that it has a 1 hour casting time. That means that even if you conjure an elemental and begin casting planar binding on it immediately, the elemental will still disappear 1 round before you can finish the planar binding spell, since conjured elementals only remain for 1 hour. One could gate a creature into a magic circle, I guess, but that requires a 9th level spell. I was hoping there was actually a way to use planar binding, a 5th level spell, without having to wait an additional 8 levels.

I don't see how that follows. If it takes an hour to bind, and the elemental remains for an hour, where do you get the missing one round? I'd understand if Conjure Elemental only lasted for 599 rounds, but in fact it lasts for a full hour.

Plus, if your DM actually did make it vanish one round before you finish casting, he's just being a jerk. The clear intent of the matching duration/casting-time is to make it possible to bind your own conjurations. (Otherwise you'd need two spellcasters.) Just look at the wording:

http://www.5esrd.com/spellcasting/all-spells/p/planar-binding said:
With this spell, you attempt to bind a celestial, an elemental, a fey, or a fiend to your service. The creature must be within range for the entire casting of the spell. (Typically, the creature is first summoned into the center of an inverted magic circle in order to keep it trapped while this spell is cast.) At the completion of the casting, the target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, it is bound to serve you for the duration. If the creature was summoned or created by another spell, that spell’s duration is extended to match the duration of this spell.

If the PHB had intended to force you to find elementals in the wild or Gate them in with a 9th level Gate spell (which BTW has no duration), it wouldn't even have the text in bold. All the summoning spells in the PHB have one-hour durations; Planar Binding has a one-hour casting time. They're obviously intended to be used together, and if your DM pretends otherwise he's being unreasonable.

Phazonfish · Oct 10, 2016

I'm pretty sure [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] is right.
In the event your DM is unreasonable, however, you can still consider multiclassing into sorcerer and applying Extended Spell.

MechaTarrasque · Oct 10, 2016

CapnZapp said:
Sorry @MechaTarrasque gonna agree with @Phazonfish here - you cannot call it good design to offer a spell that's designed to force outsiders to do your bidding, but not then ensure a reliable supply of such outsiders.

Any outsider that agrees to sitting still for a whole hour doesn't need to be bound. So that can't be the use case.

There must be a way to pacify a hostile outsider long enough to take control over it. That's what the discussion is about. If there are no such ways, then Planar Binding sucks.

And that assumes you can even find such an outsider. In every edition past, you could always conjure up your own. If that isn't possible in 5E, then Planar Binding sucks even more.

As for stories involving outsiders - if you don't need a spell to summon the monster, it's reasonable to expect you don't need one to bind it either. So what's the spell even for?

Perhaps there once was more support for summoning and binding of outsiders, but Planar Binding certainly isn't good enough on its own.

Right now, it all looks towards Planar Binding being essentially worthless unless we can come up with a way to arrange the conditions it requires. Have anyone tweeted the devs about how they suggest we use it?

The enterprising binder brings along a buddy who knows hold monster. True it doesn't work on undead, but it does work on outsiders (there is even a warlock invocation that references it). Conveniently a 5th level spell, too. Holds the outsider, while the binder casts magic circle. Binding follows. Oh, I see the problem. In your white room scenario, the wizard is alone. I am pretty sure there are no shortage of cautionary tales about solo wizards trying to bind demons. Real friends don't let friends bind solo.

Phazonfish · Oct 10, 2016

[MENTION=6801226]MechaTarrasque[/MENTION]
I had considered this, but do you really think the target is gonna fail its save to shrug off Hold Monster every round for the spell's entire duration? As you said, Hold Monster is a 5th level spell, so even a warlock, being able to spend all their slots as 5th level, only gets 2 tries. Maybe substitute Hypnotic Pattern for Hold Monster, as it only allows 1 chance to save?