D&D 5E CR 13 dragon beaten by level 7 party observations

Plane Sailing · Dec 3, 2014

On the grappling question, I can see the argument in terms of resisting getting grappled in the first place (the human vs the mouse argument), but once a human has grappled a mouse, how easily can the mouse escape? I would think not very easily ("I will hug him and pet him and call him george").

However, the rules use the same opposed checks to escape an existing grapple as they do for avoiding being grappled in the first place. So even when the human has grabbed the mouse/dragon has grabbed the human the massive size differential somehow doesn't come into play for maintaining the grapple.

Does that still remain reasonable IYO?

Tormyr · Dec 3, 2014

Plane Sailing said:
On the grappling question, I can see the argument in terms of resisting getting grappled in the first place (the human vs the mouse argument), but once a human has grappled a mouse, how easily can the mouse escape? I would think not very easily ("I will hug him and pet him and call him george").

However, the rules use the same opposed checks to escape an existing grapple as they do for avoiding being grappled in the first place. So even when the human has grabbed the mouse/dragon has grabbed the human the massive size differential somehow doesn't come into play for maintaining the grapple.

Does that still remain reasonable IYO?

Well the dice rolls are just abstractions of what is going on. The mouse wriggles back and forth, maybe bites, and the natural revulsion of holding a wild (possibly diseased) mouse kicks in, and the person drops it.

And Bugs always escaped.

Sword of Spirit · Dec 4, 2014

pemerton said:
Out of curiosity - I understand how you (the dragon) can tell if people are dead or dying. But how do you tell if they are "damaged", or "down to half hit points or so"? What are the sensory cues for that?

I tend to describe all hit point damage (except psychic) as being partly physical. Lightning, fire, and acid will produce at least minor burns. Cold and poison won't necessarily be as obvious, but an injured character is going to move differently, enough to cue in the opposition that they aren't feeling well. I give the PCs descriptions all the time about how beat up the foes are, usually focusing more on the fact that they look unsteady on their feat than enumerating the number and location of slashes (though I like to describe a decent number of wounds as they are taken). So, since dragons have excellent perception, by the time someone is down to half hit points or so it isn't going to be hard to tell they are pretty beat up. If a party attempted to fake out a dragon by acting more beat up than they are, I'd definitely let them attempt a Charisma (Deception) vs. Wisdom (Insight) or Wisdom (Medicine) to attempt the ruse...

howandwhy99 · Dec 5, 2014

Congrats! Good use of tactics, planning before the fight, getting the jump on the foe, fighting the flying creature in an enclosed space, taking away some of its strength for example by spreading yourselves out. And of course getting lucky with some rolls and DM calls. That sounds like really good game play overall.

Things could have gone the other way though. Did you guys have a Plan B, if the surprise didn't work? Doing no recon can hurt you, but you made out. What about an Escape plan if everything went south?

Mochan · Jun 13, 2017

You know what makes encounters easy? When the DM plays the enemies stupidly. That makes any encounter easier.

If the DM purposefully plays his opponents intelligently, doing things the PCs would: they could easily kill parties much higher level than their CR.

I like when a DM gets clever to give them party a tough time not necessarily through a meat wall of HP and claws. But through an intelligent encounter that poses unique challenges.

Charles Rampant · Jun 13, 2017

Plane Sailing said:
In that case, even without room to fly I would have thought that the White Dragon could have spent a lot of time out of melee range of the PCs... maybe it was forgotten?

In combats with Dragons I've run, the question quickly becomes 'do I retreat and take OAs, or stick around and take full turns?' Flying around and avoiding damage seems all good and well, but the moment the Paladin gets into melee (which, to be honest, he should do eventually - it'd be boring for the player otherwise!) the D&D rules really make it tough for the Dragon to leave without just soaking 'free' damage. Combine that with parties who can easily dodge Red Dragon breath weapons (Rogue + Monks representing) and the Paladin giving everyone a reason to stick together, it becomes hard to see what the Dragon does to actually do damage without getting into a melee fight that it will inevitably lose very quickly. I would suggest that giving the Dragon the Fly By trait that Perytons have can work to avoid this whole problem, but I found that some players get very vocally unhappy about an enemy that they cannot fight in melee, and I'm not sure that I would totally blame them for it.

I thought it was very telling that even when it tried to escape by flying down a corridor they ran after it, caught it, and killed it anyway. Saying that, the players enjoyed killing it, so no worries!

jgsugden · Jun 13, 2017

The Necromancy is strong with [MENTION=6887465]Mochan[/MENTION] to revive a thread dead for so long... Putting aside the settled matter and addressing the recent comments:

D&D is a role playing game. Players play a role in a story. Generally, their characters are the heroes of the story. The DM's job is to set the stage to create an amazing story.

How does a DM set the stage for amazing stories?

1.) Make the heroes feel special. Not every challenge should be challenges of survival where the PCs get beaten up. While there should be some fights for survival, there are also plenty of ways to challenge PCs without putting their lives at risk. Rather than putting in so many goblins that the PCs have to struggle to survive, use a small number of goblins that you know the PCs can handle and give the goblins an alternative goal (steal the baby, cut the rope bridge, etc...) The PCs can feel more powerful than the heroes.

2.) Almost every major enemy should have an exploitable flaw. Beating on a dragon until it dies is a common MMORPG experience that anyone can do at any time. RPGs are not bound by the limitations of code and can venture into more imaginative ways to resolve combats. Collapse the ceiling on the dragon, trick it into wasting the breath on something that is not really there, dive through a small door to escape it... only to have it break down the wall and squeeze through after you. Give them personality traits that are exploitable - arrogance, greed, playfulness, addictions, vanity, obsessions, etc... The majority of your villains in good stories have that fatal flaw that the hero can exploit to save the day - winning not by being the strongest, but by being the best.

3.) D&D isn't DM versus players. DMs work with players to tell stories - not against them to try to beat them. Celebrate when heroes win the day.

Does all of this mean that players should not be challenged by a dragon? Of course not. There is a place for those major turning points in a story when the heroes are truly pushed to their limits - and perhaps heroes fall - but that is not something that you need in every combat.

Charles Rampant · Jun 13, 2017

Damn, I didn't realise this was a necro.

Krachek · Jun 13, 2017

Warmaster Horus said:
Being prepared and getting a solid surprise round in is your best bet for downing a superior CR encounter.

I wonder what would happen if this Dragon surprise the party without preparation!
But otherwise, a buffed party with a surprise round can do amazing thing.
Not really representative of the CR table.

FormerlyHemlock · Jun 13, 2017

Charles Rampant said:
In combats with Dragons I've run, the question quickly becomes 'do I retreat and take OAs, or stick around and take full turns?' Flying around and avoiding damage seems all good and well, but the moment the Paladin gets into melee (which, to be honest, he should do eventually - it'd be boring for the player otherwise!) the D&D rules really make it tough for the Dragon to leave without just soaking 'free' damage. Combine that with parties who can easily dodge Red Dragon breath weapons (Rogue + Monks representing) and the Paladin giving everyone a reason to stick together, it becomes hard to see what the Dragon does to actually do damage without getting into a melee fight that it will inevitably lose very quickly. I would suggest that giving the Dragon the Fly By trait that Perytons have can work to avoid this whole problem, but I found that some players get very vocally unhappy about an enemy that they cannot fight in melee, and I'm not sure that I would totally blame them for it.

(1) Dragons have a legendary action (wing beat) which knocks prone (Str save) and then lets the dragon move. So even if the paladin managed to catch the dragon on the ground and get within melee reach of it, it can just fly away with legendary actions after his turn, and there's a good chance any opportunity attack will be at disadvantage from being prone.

(2) When is it ever worse to take a single opportunity attack from a paladin rather than an attack + extra attack? Even if the OA isn't being made with disadvantage, that's still only half as many attacks.

(3) If the party sticks together to benefit from the paladin's aura, the dragon can just strafe them with its breath weapon without ever getting into melee range in the first place. (Breathe, then burrow back under the snow until the breath recharges; rinse and repeat.) It's questionable whether the paladin aura is even a net benefit to the party in this scenario.

In short, even without Flyby, dragons are fine at fighting melee dudes like paladins. (Adding spellcasting really helps them on a strategic level though, giving them ways to be a BBEG effectively, as well as giving them an a better answer to ranged combatants.)