D&D 5E CR 13 dragon beaten by level 7 party observations

[Warmaster Horus]

You keep talking about the grapple attempt as if the dragon's claw is guaranteed to hit you any time it tries, and the only question is whether you can physically wrestle the beast into submission.

No, I'm talking about the rules for Grappling.

Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check, a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you succeed, you subject the target to the grappled condition (see appendix A).

In the case I'm thinking about, a Huge size creature trying to Grapple a Medium size creature, I'd probably assess a Disadvantage to the Medium size creature's Strength or Dex check. This is based on the wording that to initiate a grapple your target can only be one size class larger than you (no restriction on smaller). Given that, my assumption is that Medium sized creature is very outclassed by a Huge one. Just how I'd rule it.

That's all I have to say. Peace, Out!

 

[Hapami]

D&D (and most RPGs) have always been wonky when trying to compare the strength of humanoids with monsters. I mean, how many people are stronger than a clydsdale horse? I can't think of any. But in D&D land? Lots of people (it has STR 18).

Actually, very few will have more than the Clydesdale. You have to have a natural roll of 17 (with the human +1 to all stats), which, assuming normal NPCs have straight 3d6, gives them a 1.85% chance to meet. Then you have to have one of those people who rolled a high enough Str to also be 4th level or higher to get a stat boost.

Technically, if they're 4th level or higher, they could start with a 17 Str (4.63% chance). This is still a fair rarity, given it's only (rounding up) 1/20 4th level characters. Not many people in the real world are that high level, and the traditional assumption is that not many people in D&D are, either. They're mostly made up of 1st level commoners or nobility, with a few at higher levels.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Actually, very few will have more than the Clydesdale. You have to have a natural roll of 17 (with the human +1 to all stats), which, assuming normal NPCs have straight 3d6, gives them a 1.85% chance to meet. Then you have to have one of those people who rolled a high enough Str to also be 4th level or higher to get a stat boost.

Technically, if they're 4th level or higher, they could start with a 17 Str (4.63% chance). This is still a fair rarity, given it's only (rounding up) 1/20 4th level characters. Not many people in the real world are that high level, and the traditional assumption is that not many people in D&D are, either. They're mostly made up of 1st level commoners or nobility, with a few at higher levels.

Pretty much every STR based adventurer will have STR of 18 in fairly short order. And many will have 20 not too long after that. Even if it's just 1% of the population, that's a heck of a lot more people stronger than a Clydesdale than "real life", which is emphatically 0.

I stand by my assertion that strength ratings for beasts and monsters are wonky, and have been for a long time

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Pretty much every STR based adventurer will have STR of 18 in fairly short order. And many will have 20 not too long after that. Even if it's just 1% of the population, that's a heck of a lot more people stronger than a Clydesdale than "real life", which is emphatically 0.

I stand by my assertion that strength ratings for beasts and monsters are wonky, and have been for a long time

D&D is far from real life, though. Its' swords & sorcery and pulp ancestry had lots of improbably-strong heroes ala Conan and Tarzan.

 

[Joe Liker]

In the case I'm thinking about, a Huge size creature trying to Grapple a Medium size creature, I'd probably assess a Disadvantage to the Medium size creature's Strength or Dex check. This is based on the wording that to initiate a grapple your target can only be one size class larger than you (no restriction on smaller). Given that, my assumption is that Medium sized creature is very outclassed by a Huge one.

The size restriction only applies to the person initiating the grapple, and it's not about being "outclassed" in terms of grappling ability, or even relative Strength. It's more about relative weight -- a Huge creature weighs thousands of pounds. Attempting to immobilize something that big simply cannot work if the grappler's mass is less than one percent of the target's. That situation would be covered under the Riding Down the Dragon rules, or whatever it's called in the DMG I don't have yet.

That said, this does make it seem like they might have low-balled the Strength scores of many of the bigger creatures in the MM. By the parameters set in the rules, a lot of them might have trouble lifting their own mass as they attempt to walk or fly.

 

[Dausuul]

Pretty much every STR based adventurer will have STR of 18 in fairly short order. And many will have 20 not too long after that. Even if it's just 1% of the population, that's a heck of a lot more people stronger than a Clydesdale than "real life", which is emphatically 0.

I stand by my assertion that strength ratings for beasts and monsters are wonky, and have been for a long time

The problem is that Strength is used for a variety of things, only some of which correspond to brute muscle power. If an elephant's Strength score were proportional to its brute power, then it would never miss on attacks and it could climb walls like a master thief.

D&D's resolution to this is to have your Strength score be partly relative to your size category. Thus, a Strength 17 horse (Large) can carry more than a Strength 18 human (Medium); but the human is better at climbing and swimming, and can hit more accurately. Larger creatures still tend to have higher Strength, but not in proportion to their size.

Grappling involves two questions; whether you can catch hold of another creature, and whether you can control it once you've grabbed it. The grab is akin to an attack roll, while the ability to control the grabbed creature is much more of a brute power question. 3E split these out into a touch attack to start the grapple and a size-adjusted Grapple check once the grapple begins. In 5E, the grapple check is how you start the grapple, and the question of control boils down to encumbrance and size: You must be able to move the weight of any creature you're grappling, and your movement is halved unless you're 2+ sizes larger.

 

[Tormyr]

That said, this does make it seem like they might have low-balled the Strength scores of many of the bigger creatures in the MM. By the parameters set in the rules, a lot of them might have trouble lifting their own mass as they attempt to walk or fly.

Don't forget that lifting weight/carrying capacity is for additional weight (not the creature's weight) and that calculation doubles for every increase in size class above medium. Since it is additional weight, their own weight is assumed as taken care of. Even a str 1 creature can lift its own weight.

Now, carrying their buddy on the other hand...

 

[Plane Sailing]

Actually, very few will have more than the Clydesdale. You have to have a natural roll of 17 (with the human +1 to all stats), which, assuming normal NPCs have straight 3d6, gives them a 1.85% chance to meet. Then you have to have one of those people who rolled a high enough Str to also be 4th level or higher to get a stat boost.

I think you are underestimating the figures resulting from your maths!

Even if standard NPCs rolled 3d6 and had no human bonus, 1 in 216 would have an 18 strength.

In other words, every sizeable village is likely to have one guy with an 18 strength. The blacksmith probably.

So every village would have someone as strong as a clydesdale horse!

 

[Rhenny]

For really huge creatures, it may not even be a grapple. We need rules for "the creature lands directly on top of you, pinning you under its immense weight."

I think this would be a common tactic for huge dragons and other creatures.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

For really huge creatures, it may not even be a grapple. We need rules for "the creature lands directly on top of you, pinning you under its immense weight."

I think this would be a common tactic for huge dragons and other creatures.

I've come up with some rules that would work for me. I'd allow creatures that were large enough to do it the option to just fall on top of smaller creatures. You automatically go prone in their space and take falling damage. Make opposed grapple checks. If they succeed they get out from underneath of you (move to adjacent space) and are fine. Otherwise they go prone and are grappled by you, and take damage as if they fell from the height that you did. I'd probably allow the falling creature to make a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (DC 15) to only take half damage from the fall. And if we are dealing with a flying creature who can just land on you, then they wouldn't need to take any falling damage.