D&D 5E CR 13 dragon beaten by level 7 party observations

[Sacrosanct]

Last night we were playing a sort of arena-style session. We were in a giant tower, and you had to beat a challenge on the current floor and move up to the next floor, etc. So not really your typical session. In the final battle we did, we were all 7th level and we were in a huge room that was the lair of an adult white dragon. We were able to beat it without anyone dropping (although several of us were down pretty low).

Our party:
halfling battlemaster fighter
half elf eldritch knight
human eldritch knight
dwarven cleric of light
half elf elemental monk

All 7th level. We were all spread out and not grouped up in it's lair, which mitigated any AoE attacks. We were in its lair, so it did use lair actions. Now, your first impression might be like mine and think, "Wait, a 7th level party should be wiped out by an adult white dragon." And I agree. I think normally it would have. I've thought about the following reasons why we were able to beat it:

* we know there was going to be a "boss" fight, but we didn't know what kind. So we were able to prep before entering the portal
* our prepping included some magic items that a 7th level party might not have. the battlemaster (me) took a potion of fire giant strength and on the first round before combat actually started I took a potion of speed. The 1/2 elf E. knight took a potion of invulnerability. The monk took a potion of stone giant strength. We were all at max resources.
* we positioned ourselves behind cover before the cleric launched a fireball into an ajoining chamber where we thought the dragon was, which lured it out, causing me to get an AoO on it.
* we totally blew our load on the first round. Which meant as the battlemaster, I blew through all my superiority dice in the first round (I had 5 attacks that round: 2 normally +1 haste +2 more from action surge), and they were all at +10 to hit and +8 damage (from potion). I was using goading strike and distracting strike. The DM ruled that since white dragons aren't that smart, it used its legendary resistance 3 times in a row on 3 failed saves in a row (DM rolled its saves poorly) rather than save LR for a big spell.
* by the end of round 1 of actual combat, between my 5 attacks at 2d8+8 each (superiority dice added) and the monk's 4 attacks at 1d6+7 each and the fireball slinging cleric, we had it down to half health or so.
* it didn't really have a lot of room to fly

So I think the battle we did was an exception, rather than the rule, and normally we would have failed. But what it did do is reinforce an observation I have had for a while now.

That is: Single high CR monsters aren't nearly as challenging as many low CR monsters. I.e., if you use the encounter designed rules, a deadly encounter with one higher CR monster will not be as tough as a deadly encounter made up from several lower CR monsters. Technically they are both deadly encounters, but in actual play, when you've got many creatures to worry about, it seems a lot harder than one single creature you can all focus on. I think it's because that one high CR monster just has to fail a save once for something like goading strike or hold person or likewise, and the entire battle is turned. While against multiple lower CR opponents, having one of them fail a save doesn't affect any of the others, and something like goading strike has less effect.

 

[SilverfireSage]

Totally agree with your assessment. There's still a problem with big bad monsters being easier to kill if people are prepared. You guys did a really excellent job going in there and giving it what for!

I'll also add that different party compositions will be better against certain monsters. You guys, with essentially 5 fighters, were built to take on a monster like this, dealing insane amounts of damage every round. However, if you had to go against another CR13 monster, like say, a Beholder, I'm sure it would have turned out differently. Then again, I had a party that was much lower level than a beholder, around 10, go in with about half resources and dominate it because they stayed grouped together next to a paladin (who was able to give them a bonus to saving throws) and the two archers just whittled it down until it was dead with very minimal losses.

This is the reason why I didn't care that the monster manual didn't have a monster list by CR rating and the DM's guide does, because it doesn't matter as much in this edition. Throw whatever you like against the players, just use a rough guesstimate to try to not destroy them outright.

 

[Sacrosanct]

This is the reason why I didn't care that the monster manual didn't have a monster list by CR rating and the DM's guide does, because it doesn't matter as much in this edition. Throw whatever you like against the players, just use a rough guesstimate to try to not destroy them outright.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and it's how I've been doing it for almost 35 years

 

[Daern]

Your lucky the DM didn't have that potion miscibility table from the DMG.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Being prepared and getting a solid surprise round in is your best bet for downing a superior CR encounter.

 

[Eejit]

INT 8 really isn't that dumb, it sounds like the DM underestimated how intelligent that is. It's the typical Thri-Keen, Bugbear, Tribal Warrior NPC, and those legendary trap-users; Kobolds.

 

[Agamon]

INT 8 really isn't that dumb, it sounds like the DM underestimated how intelligent that is. It's the typical Thri-Keen, Bugbear, Tribal Warrior NPC, and those legendary trap-users; Kobolds.

On top of that, I wouldn't run Legendary Resistance that way, myself. It isn't something a creature in game "uses" ("Behold, fools! Kneel before the might of my Legendary Resistance!"), it's a game mechanic that keeps legendary creatures from quickly losing to the unlucky saving throw, to simulate how they've survived for so long. Dumb creature or smart creature, I would use it tactically.

Then again, it might have just been the DM throwing you guys a bone against a clearly superior creature and using "dumb monster" as the excuse.

 

[variant]

5e is not balanced for magical items. When the DM throws in magical items, it is up to him to figure out how challenging an encounter is.

 

[Sacrosanct]

On top of that, I wouldn't run Legendary Resistance that way, myself. It isn't something a creature in game "uses" ("Behold, fools! Kneel before the might of my Legendary Resistance!"), it's a game mechanic that keeps legendary creatures from quickly losing to the unlucky saving throw, to simulate how they've survived for so long. Dumb creature or smart creature, I would use it tactically.

Then again, it might have just been the DM throwing you guys a bone against a clearly superior creature and using "dumb monster" as the excuse.

Not really. Turned out we killed it after a few more rounds before it would have needed to make another save anyway.

 

[TDarien]

If the PCs only have on encounter a day, then they should be able to handle an encounter with a CR several levels higher than the party level, especially if they're using all their resources in that one fight. However, the system expects 6-8 encounters a day, and I think the CR system is designed around that. A fresh level 7 party could handle that CR 13 dragon, but one that's already had 5-6 encounters without a long rest would be toast. I also wonder how many more encounters that level 7 party could face after defeating the dragon.