Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

AriochQ

Adventurer
One thing the article did not do, which it should have, is to define what is meant by "Old School" and "New School". It is very difficult to carry on a conversation/debate when people take the terms to mean different things. All these comments relate to D&D. Including other games broadens the topic to such an extent that dialog becomes very difficult. It is my belief that OS equates from ODD to early 2e AD&D. NS is everything since.

I am by no means the final word on the topic, but I believe, the following characteristics are the most agreed upon for each type:

Old School-
More Deadly
Less story driven, more simulationist
Rules light, rules are often missing or by DM fiat, rules are sometimes quirky
Greater DM authority - Rulings not rules. The DM accesses the rules. High trust in DM by players.
Not Balanced- 'asymetrical' game design. Classes, abilities, adventures, etc. do not worry so much about balance.
Character actions - Concrete. Players observe and describe. Goals are often achieved through a series of concrete action rolls (e.g. "I wedge an iron spike into the floor panel to wedge the trap door shut.")
Heroic - PC's are still 'realistic' versions of normal people
Slow Advancement - Character ability advancement is often not as important as equipment or experience

New School-
Less deadly
Rules heavy - Most possible actions have an associated rule or standard resolution
Lesser DM authority - Players access rules. Players expect DM to follow written rules (Low Trust)
Balanced - Strive to achieve a zen-like state of balance across multiple aspects of the game: class abilities, encounters, spell effects, etc.
Character actions-abstract. Characters will often make one roll to resolve action with no description of methods (e.g. "I disarm the trap")
Superheroic - PC eventually have abilities far exceeding human capacity
Fast Advancement - PC gain new powers and abilities at a quickened, and consistent, rate.

There are ton of other topics that could be included, but are more debatable: Effects of failure, strategy and tactics, importance of 3 pillars, campaign focus, etc.

There are also several areas that should not be included as they are not dependent on NS/OS, but instead exist across all game types: Sandbox/Railroad, The Importance of Story and the PC's role in the campaign, Team/Solo, DM Skill, Rules Mastery, etc.


As stated above, I don't purport to be an expert on the topic, but it is helpful to agree upon a general set of definitions before starting a spirited debate about the details.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
That's not quite right. I get what [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] is getting at. In newer games, a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to determining how to adjudicate a situation is often already done for you by the system. You aren't expected to come up with entirely new mechanics, whole cloth, very often.

I have a big problem likening that to "trust". It seems a bit.. revisionist, in a way.

Here's a kitchen refrigerator-freezer. It has an ice maker. Does that imply I don't "trust" you to make ice? Or does it imply I've worked out a way where you don't have to worry about making ice, and can get along with more important things in your life? If I build you a car with a crank on the front, rather than an electrical ignition, is that because I "trust" you to be able to start your own darn car? No, it is because I haven't gotten to that point of technical sophistication yet, or have some other limitation such that I can't give you the ease of use of an electrical starter motor.

Gygax and company were visionary, but they were also new. The entire field of RPG design was new. There were a lot of things they hadn't figured out yet. When as design question arose they typically created a specialized subsystem for it, and they patched those together. This isn't because it is some brilliant design centered on trusting the GM, but because the very idea of generalized task resolution simply hadn't occurred to anyone yet.

Comprehensive rules do not express "lack of trust" in the GM. Comprehensive rules of 3e and 4e merely express a desire to somewhat unify experience across multiple GMs. Generalized rules of Fate and Cortex+ and WoD express a technical innovation that simply reduced the need for rulings. The loaded word "trust" comes from a time when people were distressed by change, and should not be trusted to accurately depict the changes and the reasons behind them, or the resulting relationships between player and GM.

So, yes, I'll agree that in OS games, the GM tends to make more rulings. I'm fine with that. It has nothing to do with trust.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
"D&D doesn't really have anything like that so if you want to run a game with the episodic and dramatic feel, you'd have to either (a) have a really good DM capable of making that happen or (b) run the risk of things feeling very railroaded. "

See, to me, I think it's a telling thing that apparently the same thing done "by gm spending chips" rather than by "gm runs the npcs and the world" can be taken as just expected in one case and railroading in the other.

One thing I really have to emphasize about the Threat/Momentum mechanic is that if you just read it, you really don't get a feel for it. It runs way better than it reads.


Back in "yee olde days" when the ground rumbled in the background as we delved deeper it wasnt "railroading" it was "ok, lets not stay longer than we have to cuz this baby dont seem like it's as dormant as they said." No chips. No gripes about offenses to our agency. Just part of the challenge and fun.

I have no problem running games that way and it's how I run most of mine, to be clear. I'm still running a heavily house ruled 2E game, after all.


I am not trying to be dismissive of that transition or the concerns but I find it amusing that the *not really new* threat chips (see velow) basically just serve as a beard to give GMs the same choices they had from day one - with the exact same risks of in the hands of a not "really good" gm.

No the thing about a mound of Threat chips is that the players know about them. They can see the pile. They made the pile. It's very tangible.


To me, the downside of this is the embedding of the chip economy so strongly into challenge resolution that it really puts the chips as the top focus - both in success and consequence but as the top reward that matter - I spotlight STA as an example. Sèms more like the celebration after a conflict is not over "we saved the hostages" but "we got 5 momentum." I think a word balloon graph of the whole run of Shield of Tomorrow STA likely has "momentum" as the most used word in the entire series.

Nope, not how momentum works. The game was written to give you a powerful incentive to spend it. If you try to hoard, it diminishes rapidly and in my experience it rarely hangs around for long. (You mentioned that later.)


My group's biases aside, an aspect that I like from STA (not though to outweigh the rest of its momentum problems imo) is that if I recall correctly "resting" costs you dome of your momentum pool - making it "better" to press on if you can as far as that very importsntvredource is concerned - agsin just seems a mechanical representation of yee olde "but if we rest the other guys get to regroup and may counterattack" playstyle.

Yes, it is a mechanical implementation of what a skilled DM does in an ad hoc way.


I might have to think about whether this mechanical representation of what were basic gming roleplay is intended to be (and does it succeed at) removing that "good gm" skill play and replacing it with more "follow the mechanics" oriented play - with "how soon does thre mountain blow" and "do the goblins regroup and attack while we rest " decided not by gm but by how many threat chips the mechanics gave them?

Iv'e GMed many games for a long time and I found that in general Threat/Momentum helped me because it integrates the ebbs and flows of dramatic pulp style action really well and does it in a way that's much better than any other system I've found. For instance, it's fast and the die pool mechanic is rational in the sense that more skill or ability always helps you and larger die pools, which are inherently more risky, are the results of things you chose.

I am NOT claiming 2D20 is a perfect system nor that I'd want to use it for every game. Other games have had threat chips before, of course. The reason I like it is not because it doesn't have predecessors, but because its implementation is pretty clean.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
One thing the article did not do, which it should have, is to define what is meant by "Old School" and "New School". It is very difficult to carry on a conversation/debate when people take the terms to mean different things. All these comments relate to D&D. Including other games broadens the topic to such an extent that dialog becomes very difficult. It is my belief that OS equates from ODD to early 2e AD&D. NS is everything since.

I am by no means the final word on the topic, but I believe, the following characteristics are the most agreed upon for each type:

Old School-
More Deadly
Less story driven, more simulationist
Rules light, rules are often missing or by DM fiat, rules are sometimes quirky
Greater DM authority - Rulings not rules. The DM accesses the rules. High trust in DM by players.
Not Balanced- 'asymetrical' game design. Classes, abilities, adventures, etc. do not worry so much about balance.
Character actions - Concrete. Players observe and describe. Goals are often achieved through a series of concrete action rolls (e.g. "I wedge an iron spike into the floor panel to wedge the trap door shut.")
Heroic - PC's are still 'realistic' versions of normal people
Slow Advancement - Character ability advancement is often not as important as equipment or experience

New School-
Less deadly
Rules heavy - Most possible actions have an associated rule or standard resolution
Lesser DM authority - Players access rules. Players expect DM to follow written rules (Low Trust)
Balanced - Strive to achieve a zen-like state of balance across multiple aspects of the game: class abilities, encounters, spell effects, etc.
Character actions-abstract. Characters will often make one roll to resolve action with no description of methods (e.g. "I disarm the trap")
Superheroic - PC eventually have abilities far exceeding human capacity
Fast Advancement - PC gain new powers and abilities at a quickened, and consistent, rate.

There are ton of other topics that could be included, but are more debatable: Effects of failure, strategy and tactics, importance of 3 pillars, campaign focus, etc.

There are also several areas that should not be included as they are not dependent on NS/OS, but instead exist across all game types: Sandbox/Railroad, The Importance of Story and the PC's role in the campaign, Team/Solo, DM Skill, Rules Mastery, etc.


As stated above, I don't purport to be an expert on the topic, but it is helpful to agree upon a general set of definitions before starting a spirited debate about the details.
Not much time right now, but I think your split is pretty far off and assigns some traits to NS that are very incorrect. Will discuss later.
 

Hussar

Legend
I have a big problem likening that to "trust". It seems a bit.. revisionist, in a way.
/snip

Comprehensive rules do not express "lack of trust" in the GM. Comprehensive rules of 3e and 4e merely express a desire to somewhat unify experience across multiple GMs. Generalized rules of Fate and Cortex+ and WoD express a technical innovation that simply reduced the need for rulings. The loaded word "trust" comes from a time when people were distressed by change, and should not be trusted to accurately depict the changes and the reasons behind them, or the resulting relationships between player and GM.

So, yes, I'll agree that in OS games, the GM tends to make more rulings. I'm fine with that. It has nothing to do with trust.

Ok, then how would you characterize it? The rules are designed in such a way that the GM/DM is no longer expected to perform tasks that in OS systems would have directly fallen on the DM/GM. Would that about cover it?

Perhaps "expect" rather than "trust" is the better word to use. OS games expect the DM to create rules ad hoc throughout play whereas NS games often use more comprehensive rulesets.

Note, I do disagree with [MENTION=6793324]AriochQ[/MENTION]'s characterization of rules light vs rules heavy. That's certainly not true. I mean, many NS games are only a couple of pages long. Or, even something like Savage Worlds, while hardly rules light, is far, far lighter than, say, AD&D. Old School games are rules absent, but, they are certainly not rules light.
 

I guess this is why people re leaving the OSR movement

Wow. This is quite the most awful argument in favor of OSR that I have ever read. Characterizing all non-OSR games as GM railroading is just .. unbelievable. It frankly paints OSR supporters in a horrible light by association with this viewpoint. I do hope that general readers won't assume that people who like OSR have viewpoints like this. The vast majority are not, I strongly believe.
 

AriochQ

Adventurer
Ok, then how would you characterize it? The rules are designed in such a way that the GM/DM is no longer expected to perform tasks that in OS systems would have directly fallen on the DM/GM. Would that about cover it?

Perhaps "expect" rather than "trust" is the better word to use. OS games expect the DM to create rules ad hoc throughout play whereas NS games often use more comprehensive rulesets.

Note, I do disagree with @AriochQ's characterization of rules light vs rules heavy. That's certainly not true. I mean, many NS games are only a couple of pages long. Or, even something like Savage Worlds, while hardly rules light, is far, far lighter than, say, AD&D. Old School games are rules absent, but, they are certainly not rules light.

Fair enough. That was one reason I restricted my list to D&D though, it is always possible to find counter-examples if you broaden the scope enough.

Perhaps 'rules heavy' and 'rules light' are not the best terms to use. In my experience, an OS DM would often make an on the fly ruling and the players generally accepted it and the game moved on. In NS games, there is much more flipping of pages to be sure it is being resolved the 'official' way. That is what I intended by the terms. You even see this phenomenon during Critical Role (whose audience leans heavily NS IMHO), on multiple occasions Mercer has told the viewers they don't need to correct any rules that are applied incorrectly during play (through twitch chat or calling out in live shows). Granted, you do have the grognard rules lawyer type in OS games, but they tend to be viewed negatively by their peers for a reason (they are outliers).
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Ok, then how would you characterize it? The rules are designed in such a way that the GM/DM is no longer expected to perform tasks that in OS systems would have directly fallen on the DM/GM. Would that about cover it?

Perhaps "expect" rather than "trust" is the better word to use. OS games expect the DM to create rules ad hoc throughout play whereas NS games often use more comprehensive rulesets.

"Expect" or "require" would probably be reasonable ways to say it.

Though, to be honest, all games call for a GM to make up stuff on the spot. The focus here is on making up rules ("Gee, there's no rule here for how you climb a wall if you aren't a thief... well, let us do this!"). But is that so fundamentally different from, "Gee, I didn't expect you to try to *bribe* the efreet rather than fight him, so I don't have a plan for it... well, let's do this!"?

Either way, the GM is making a judgement call on how to resolve a situation that wasn't worked out before play began. How do you climb? How do you sway an efreet's loyalty?

But, other than raise the question, if folks *really* want to think that single-use mechanics of the moment are somehow fundamentally different, I won't argue strenuously over it.

Note, I do disagree with [MENTION=6793324]AriochQ[/MENTION]'s characterization of rules light vs rules heavy. That's certainly not true. I mean, many NS games are only a couple of pages long.

I agree with you. Some of that which is put on New School is really specifically about 3e and/or 4e, and doesn't apply to other games. I mean, heck, all of FATE Accelerated fits in forty 6" x 9" pages. The game is tiny, by comparison to any D&D, ever.

This is part of why I spoke of both Comprehensive and Generalized rules somewhat separately. Something like 3e has Comprehensive rules - a rule for everything. Something like FATE or Cortex+ has Generalized rules. No matter what you are trying to do, the basic mechanic is the same. We only have to choose what "skills" apply, and how hard it is to accomplish. Something like Gumshoe is between the extremes - a couple different kinds of mechanics, but not too many.
 

Arilyn

Hero
I agree with Umbran. We can't discuss NS D&D as if it is the same as other NS games. This has caused confusion and arguments on this thread, for sure.

Thinking just about D&D, we need to send the game to middle school. 1e and 2e are not old school. They are too rules dense, and both editions strongly discourage house rules, lest the unwary GM brings the whole game tumbling down. It makes sense. Gygax wanted a ruleset which would be consistent no matter where you played. It was also there to support tournament play. Having said this, D&D hadn't shed all of its old school roots. It still relied on player skill over character skill, and was usually played as a series of obstacles that clever players could overcome. You were expected to bring your A game, not play out your own character's flaws and foibles. This was the period of heavy simulation, which spanned about two decades.

2e started focussing more on story. The kit books gave players more control over character choice. The end of 2 e foreshadowed what was coming in 3rd, as the game morphed into NS. NS gave players more choices, but like in Advanced, there was an expectation rules would be followed. Story began to become more and more important, and character skill became more relevant than player skill. 4e tended to be less story driven, although some players have found it can be used to be more story driven. Players continued to be central, even being able to plot out their own heroic destinies, and choose preferred treasure. 5e is seeing a bit of return to old school, with a looser ruleset, and a more streamlined system. It has lightly borrowed from NS games outside D&D.

So, OD&D, and basic/expert are old school. 1st and 2nd are middle school, and 3rd - 5th are NS. I feel adding that middle bridge helps define the editions better.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Gygax and company were visionary, but they were also new. The entire field of RPG design was new. There were a lot of things they hadn't figured out yet. When as design question arose they typically created a specialized subsystem for it, and they patched those together. This isn't because it is some brilliant design centered on trusting the GM, but because the very idea of generalized task resolution simply hadn't occurred to anyone yet.
I would agree. When this relative newtimer reads through older editions of D&D, I get the impression that I am dealing with a system that was cobbled together over time from various subsystems as need arose. There is not a lot of cohesion to it. Sure, it may have held by "rulings not rules," but "making up more rules" nevertheless seems like the consequence.

This is part of why I spoke of both Comprehensive and Generalized rules somewhat separately. Something like 3e has Comprehensive rules - a rule for everything. Something like FATE or Cortex+ has Generalized rules. No matter what you are trying to do, the basic mechanic is the same. We only have to choose what "skills" apply, and how hard it is to accomplish. Something like Gumshoe is between the extremes - a couple different kinds of mechanics, but not too many.
Indeed, the basic idea in the emboldened sentence has arguably been the prevailing trend of RPG design of the past 1-2 decades, even among some OSR games. This feature has a practical purpose. It's simply easier to teach new players one basic mechanic (or guiding principle) than two or more. And the less that you have to teach the game, the quicker that the players can immerse themselves in the game.
 

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