Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio
So is your sense of Mainstream/NSRPG basically D&D 3-5e/Pathfinder? And many of the other games that we have discussed previously, such as Fate, PbtA/DW, Blades in the Dark, etc., represent something else to you other than Mainstream/NSRPG? If so, then that may provide a substantial sense of clarity while cutting down some of the heat of the debate.

Mainstream in my view is D&D and Pathfinder. The vast majority of gamers I meet play one of those two systems. When I go to game stores to run games, or in the past when I went to conventions (which admittedly was a while ago now), those are what I see at most tables. I'd also probably include other large name games that have a solid fanbase and have reliably been played and sold in good numbers over the years (off the top of my head stuff like: Savage Worlds, Feng Shui, GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, etc.). I think basically anything that is played in very large numbers, is intended to appeal to a broad audience, etc. Not sure if Savage Worlds belongs on that list or not (my own enjoyment of the game may be messing with my sense of its popularity. Blades in the Dark, Fate and Dungeon World seem more niche, in the way the OSR is niche. These also strike me as especially focused games.
 

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My own players and I have had our own issues with 5e and a growing sense of dissatisfaction with it. (And 3e/Pathfinder is far too rules heavy for our collective tastes.)

Is your frustration with 5E with the system itself, or with the approach to campaigns, adventures etc?
 

Aldarc

Legend
No, it's a bug.
Sorry, Lanefan, but this sort of closed-mindedness, OneTrueWayism right out of the gate is a good sign that this conversation has already reached its end. And the growing quote-wall-of-text of some of the usual issues does not make things any easier in that regard. If this any indication of the sort of answers I can expect going forward, then responding at length any further is not worth my time.

As a principle yes, but in practice?
In either principle or practice you don't know nor would you because you seem reluctant to approach the discussion with much good faith. :erm:

Is your frustration with 5E with the system itself, or with the approach to campaigns, adventures etc?
Keeping in mind that my players are Austrians (and a Scot). D&D (apart from PF) has been a relatively recent phenomenon according to them. 5e D&D was really their first play of D&D. The Scot had some experience with 1-2e D&D, and another played Pathfinder in a one-shot, which they did not like. Their games before that were mostly 7th Seas 1e and Der Scwharze Auge (which they loathe). They responded well to Fate when I ran several games of that. We have also played one shots of Index Card RPG, Numenera, and Warhammer 2e. I would like to eventually run Dungeon World, Blades in the Dark (or Scum & Villainy), and possibly Black Hack for them.

Most of the players seem to take issue with the 5e system, though there are broader issues with D&D as well. It feels too easy in some regards. We reached around level 6-7, and the GM has felt challenged with creating encounters that challenge the party. Several the players and GM want something more lethal or at least risky. Some find 5e's design kinda boring and monotonous, particularly the monster design. Others have felt that character options and actions feel somewhat limited. (Less about feats here and more about attempting things such as disarming an opponent. Is there an optional rule in the DMG? Sure, but they would be equally annoyed by its presence and having to dig through books for it.)

Other issues are admittedly with D&Disms. One player, for example, is not a fan of readily available healing magic, but this is because of how it seems to trivialize their medical profession. They also kinda dislike the zero to hero leveling. Another player is tired of generic Euro-American medieval fantasy.
 

Other issues are admittedly with D&Disms. One player, for example, is not a fan of readily available healing magic, but this is because of how it seems to trivialize their medical profession. They also kinda dislike the zero to hero leveling. Another player is tired of generic Euro-American medieval fantasy.

I don't know how open they are to OSR games, but one of the cool features of OSR now is there seems to be a lot of setting material that ventures beyond the standard medieval settings. You can find that in other systems and styles as well of course, but one of the ways people distinguish themselves in OSR is making a setting that hasn't been tackled yet.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Even if you thought 2e and 3e were the same thing, the point is that the original OSR did NOT!

It was very simple. They felt that 3e was not D&D and that D&D prior to 2000 was.

Right, so the cut off is not 2000, it is 1987.

But to be fair it is probably easier to say 2000 and it does look like a nice round number.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I don't know how open they are to OSR games, but one of the cool features of OSR now is there seems to be a lot of setting material that ventures beyond the standard medieval settings. You can find that in other systems and styles as well of course, but one of the ways people distinguish themselves in OSR is making a setting that hasn't been tackled yet.
I'm a frequent cleric player as well; however, from an aesthetic or archetype standpoint, I'm not the biggest fan of the cleric either. (And I believe it was created as a class because someone wanted a Van Helsing type character to combat all the deadly undead.) So I think one easy solution is simply removing the cleric/priest and opting for a more simplistic spread of options: warrior, rogue, and mage. Healing magic may exist, but then turn it into an expensive ritual or something. So I do think that even within the context of OSR, there are some good options to explore in that regard.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Just to be clear, you think that Castles & Crusades is over-reaching by calling itself OSR? That it is factually incorrect for someone, burned out on the complexities of late-cycle Pathfinder and 4E, to consider 3.0 as an Old School game?
I suppose that would depend on perspective.

In the eyes of someone who started with 3.0 and went on from there, 3.0. might now appear to be old school. At the same time, to someone like me who started with 1e 3.0 at the time of its release was seen very much as new school. Hindsight tells us that 3.0 was probably more of an in-between transition point, given how things have gone since.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I meant that I didn't have an ulterior motive, in performing the task. I guess you could say that finding information is my goal, but that might prompt an antagonistic GM to interpret it as a failure in my ability to learn, rather than a failure at actually performing the actual action. (I've had to deal with an NS GM bringing NS game ideas into a non-NS game. It did not go well for anyone.)
Not quite. My goal is to learn about the world instead of defining it, because the objective nature of the world is important to my immersion. My character is more important to me than the world is, but the important things about my character are 1) This is who I am; and 2) They only live in the world.

If I had to worry about accidentally defining reality as a side-effect of exploration, then I'd never get anything done. I can't role-play that. That's simply not a state that humans have evolved to cope with. I guess I could try and ignore the fact that PCs are unconscious reality-warpers, in spite of all evidence to support that fact (and my out-of-character knowledge that it's definitely happening), but it would be like pretending to be an atheist in a world that's controlled by an over-active deity who is going out of their way to deliberately mess with you. It's going to get in the way of my pretending to be a magical elf.

I get that, which is why I stated it the way I did. In OS style play, the world is something the players explore and learn through their character. In NS style, the character takes precedence and players have more ability to define play.

The classic example of this is the secret door. OS, the players search for a door (usually with a required roll) and DM says if a door exists based on roll result and the prepared notes (what the DM has already built for the players to explore). In NS, the player's search for a secret door indicates interest in this and is either leveraged on the current fictional positioning or a character trait being exploited -- either way a mechanic is employed and a success means there's a secret door while a failure means the DM gets to be mean about secret doors. (These are the ends of a spectrum, there's plenty of room in the middle for varying shades.)

There's good play at both ends (and in the spaces between), but it's a definite distinction between schools of play. It goes back to play goals -- you want to explore a built world, to discover the secrets the DM has crafted, to pit yourself against a defined challenge. That's cool. NS tends to use the world as a foil to the character -- it's only important to be a challenge to the character. Players are exploring characters, not worlds. Again, there's a lot of slop here, it's not a hard line -- there's plenty of mixed up space in the middle.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I suppose that would depend on perspective.

In the eyes of someone who started with 3.0 and went on from there, 3.0. might now appear to be old school. At the same time, to someone like me who started with 1e 3.0 at the time of its release was seen very much as new school. Hindsight tells us that 3.0 was probably more of an in-between transition point, given how things have gone since.

3.x was... an interesting beast. Pathfinder had that ball and ran with it. It was, largely, a rejection of DM authority, but it didn't really share it to the players. It pushed it into the mechanics of the game. As such, it sorta sits outside of most OS/NS discussions because it's sorta neither and both. The player empowerment in 3.x wasn't because players got more authority, but because the DM lost most of theirs. You still had DMs crafting world for players to explore, so bullet 3 to old school, but you had player-side empowerment through fixed mechanics that the DM wasn't supposed to modify, so that's a bit of NS bullet 1. Action resolution was definitely still atomic, so solid OS bullet 2.

Really, 3.x is more old school except for the bit where players gained more control over the fiction through fixed mechanics that bound the DM in predictable ways. 4e then did a really odd thing -- it actually was a game you could play in either style. It continued 3.x's fixed mechanics, but you could play in a DM created fiction and explore it or allow players to create with skills and powers as they went along. Same with bullet 2, skill challenges allowed a framework of adjudicating goal level resolutions through a changing fiction, OR they were a fixed set of atomic checks to accomplish the same. It's a weird thing, 4e, and people still argue about how it should be played. I think, because of this, it was a hard system to grasp because there were all these elements that could go either way -- that and it was a pretty big departure from 3.x in terms of core mechanical implementations. I liked 4e, and played it more OS style (although I'd do that differently if I picked it up today, at least in large parts), but I have no desire to return to it.

System does impact playstyle, though. D&D, in general, is prep heavy -- monsters have a specific math they have to have to challenge the abilities of parties (or overwhelm them). That means that it doesn't lend itself well to NS style play. 4e did this better through fixed maths at level, but other editions have too much variance in party capability to function this way without lots of GM system mastery. This, in general, means D&D lends itself to OS play tropes much more than NS. However, as I noted (and did [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] and others), OS/NS is across a range, with multiple sliders. 5e adds some NS elements (background abilities, inspiration, traits, etc.) but it's core is still a DM presented, atomic action resolution system, with a focus on exploring a built world. You can step further away from this with 5e than any edition after OD&D(1973) (h/t [MENTION=2885]diaglo[/MENTION]), but it's not well designed for much of NS play. I think that it's enough designed for NS play that 1980's TSR purists are put off of it, but it's much closer to their play than 1980's TSR is to FATE or BitD.

I think it's also important to note that a game can be mostly one style or the other but you can still dislike how it does things. I dislike 3.x/Pathfinder because I don't like the rule codification, but that dislike doesn't make it OS or NS -- I just don't like that aspect of it. It still does thing pretty much like 1e, 2e, or 5e just with a slightly different way of doing it. Compared to how FATE does things, these are are largely similar. But, dislike of those near similarities can mean you don't like the game. Most OSR folks seem like this to me: they legit don't like how 3.x did things over their preferred editions and sought to create games that improved the pain points of older editions (borrowing ideas where they worked) but keeping the mechanical feels they preferred. The result is a game they love, but one that is still much, much more similar to 3.x (or 5e, later on) than to NS games like FATE, or Burning Wheel (some quibbling here, as BW is the crunchiest of the NS), or FUDGE, or Powered by the Apocalypse games.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
No, it's a bug.

With respect, no. We have a bug when the system doesn't work as intended. This is working as intended, you just don't like the intention.

We get into toxic discussion when folks don't recognize that difference.
 
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