Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Bagpuss

Legend
That's not a bad start. The one major thing I'd add, based on what I've read here, is this:

OS:
* generally runs at a slower pace, both in the run of play and in areas such as character advancement

NS:
* play is generally at a faster pace, both in the run of play and in areas such as character advancement

I disagree on character advancement a number of NS RPGs don't really have much if any character advancement, FATE for example you don't get more aspects or even more skilled very easily you but can swap things around as the story changes your character.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Half the time I attempt anything in an RPG, I have no idea what my goal is. If I try something, it's because I want to know what happens.
Then that's your goal. This isn't rocket science.

However, you did just tie into my third OS bullet -- your goal is to learn about the world instead of defining it because the world is paramount over character.
 

Then that's your goal. This isn't rocket science.
I meant that I didn't have an ulterior motive, in performing the task. I guess you could say that finding information is my goal, but that might prompt an antagonistic GM to interpret it as a failure in my ability to learn, rather than a failure at actually performing the actual action. (I've had to deal with an NS GM bringing NS game ideas into a non-NS game. It did not go well for anyone.)
However, you did just tie into my third OS bullet -- your goal is to learn about the world instead of defining it because the world is paramount over character.
Not quite. My goal is to learn about the world instead of defining it, because the objective nature of the world is important to my immersion. My character is more important to me than the world is, but the important things about my character are 1) This is who I am; and 2) They only live in the world.

If I had to worry about accidentally defining reality as a side-effect of exploration, then I'd never get anything done. I can't role-play that. That's simply not a state that humans have evolved to cope with. I guess I could try and ignore the fact that PCs are unconscious reality-warpers, in spite of all evidence to support that fact (and my out-of-character knowledge that it's definitely happening), but it would be like pretending to be an atheist in a world that's controlled by an over-active deity who is going out of their way to deliberately mess with you. It's going to get in the way of my pretending to be a magical elf.
 

Hussar

Legend
And those games usually considered New School (like Cortex+ of FATE-based systems), that have much of the content of the session generated in-flight? They *don't* trust their GMs, and they *aren't* fleshing out material in-play, even though the material didn't exist before play began?

That's not quite right. I get what [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] is getting at. In newer games, a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to determining how to adjudicate a situation is often already done for you by the system. You aren't expected to come up with entirely new mechanics, whole cloth, very often.

Like I mentioned before, in a new school game, when a player attempts something that's not specifically prescribed by the mechanics, usually there is some sort of fall back mechanic like, say, Savage World's Rule of 4 (any final score higher than 4 is a success). It's not like in, say, AD&D, when you ask DM's how to jump over a pit and get ten different answers, none of which are actual mechanics in the system itself.

I can see what [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] means here by OSR players being more "optimistic" in their view of the GM. They have to be. They're playing systems where the GM is expected to repeatedly create new mechanics as needed.
 

GreyLord

Legend
Maybe you missed some of the stuff that was coming out at the end of 2e? Between the Skills and Powers and Combat and Tactics expansions 3e is not such a big step from 2e as you may imagine.

It's AMAZING HOW SHORT people's memories are. It's been less than 20 years.

OSR did NOT care. Of course, people like to try to make these things CLOSER than they actually were, or that MORE people were using them than actually WERE using them.

However, even that is not relative to the discussion.

Even if you thought 2e and 3e were the same thing, the point is that the original OSR did NOT!

It was very simple. They felt that 3e was not D&D and that D&D prior to 2000 was.

Everything that originally came out was made to try to either copy pre-2000 D&D (OSRIC is a primary mover of the OSR movement) or recreate it in some way.

The entire dividing line was what was D&D prior to 3e and what was then the current D&D (3e and beyond).

It was not really a movement as people see it today, but what people wanted to play and/or continue to play. They did not feel D20/3e was compatible with AD&D or other earlier D&D's (and it was not as compatible as AD&D was between 1e and 2e, or BECMI/BX and AD&D by any shot of the imagination) and hence wanted to continue to have rules which were for various reasons (OSRIC was originally to allow companies to make adventures compatible with AD&D for example).

It's a clear and defined line. There are those that have tried to hijack it (and in many ways have been successful in that with their presentation to many who never knew what the OSR was all about in the first place), but they cannot define nor change what they (the original individuals who played and created the OSR and such items) are or were.

Since that time there are those who have expanded the definition to other items. It expanded to a degree to try to include any game system that was pre-2000 with an emphasis more on games from the 1980s....which is still a pretty decent line...

But the idea today that it is entirely a playstyle (and there are what we could call Old School DM's which is more freeform...and I can buy that...but OSR is different in my opinion) and thus can include everything from 5e to other new school rules is FAR too nebulous an idea.

It is simply a put down on those who were the original OSR players and gamers, it detracts from what they actually did and who they are, and it actually confused people. Because we have those who have tried to hijack the OSR (and they have been largely successful with those who were not involved with OSR ideas originally) they have made it so that when asked what the OSR is or what OSR means, there are millions of different ideas and definitions because everyone has a different idea of what free form and other thoughts are.

However, it was NOT so at the beginning. Originally it really wasn't a "feeling" or "feels" at all. It was pretty defined and pretty obvious. It was rulesets trying to recreate Pre-2000 D&D.

Simple. Straight forward. Defined.

Doesn't matter how close or not the end of 2e was to 3e, as that really had nothing to do with what they were trying to recreate. The OSR itself probably has more to being derived in a way from OSRIC (Old School Reference and Index System) as a name than most other things and it speaks for itself on what it is and what it's purpose was for.

Today, as the articles in discussion provide, the idea of what Old School gaming is have become nebulous in definition in people's minds (and as I said, I blame that mostly on those who have hijacked the ideas to try to redefine it in their own image) until it can mean one thing to one individual and something entirely different to someone else. This is why I think so many have had disagreements with what the author stated rather than what Old School gaming really used to be.

Perhaps when looking at seeing the differences between Old School gaming and New School gaming one should look at the Old School gamers who have ALWAYS been old school gamers (though I think you were one too...) in their thoughts and see how much difference there really is.

For me, my gaming style has basically stayed the same REGARDLESS of edition (and so some may call me an old school DM) but that does not mean that EVERY edition is Old School. To me, it is NOT so much about playstyle...but a more defined thing. Anyone looking at the early movement can see the obvious, it was all about pre and post 2000 D&D...it's only that even in this short time (barely less than a generation) that many seem to have forgotten, or bought into this idea that NEW SCHOOL game systems made today with NEW SCHOOL ideas are anything close to being Old School or fall under OSR.

I don't see OSR as a playstyle at all or ANY game system I played would be considered Old School. If that were so, the OSR would never have been around to begin with.
 

I think it is challenging for historical, tribal reasons. This is a Dichotomy Conflict (the 3e-4e Edition Wars were another such conflict), and in these, one side or another tends to lay claim to "good" behaviors, and assert the other side doesn't have them. Historically, this has happened a lot, and if you are going to enter the discussion, it is *really* helpful to remember that.

If you call out a thing that is important to, or often found in, Old School play, that's fine. However, if it isn't *particular* to Old School play, then it isn't telling us much for this discussion - it does not elucidate anything special about the style, *and* it can easily look like the toxic behavior historically seen. So...

I get that there have been flamewars. I was involved in the 3E-4E ones myself at the time. I realized how pointless that was after a while. But these things emerge in hobby communities. Still I don't think it is unimportant that a style places great emphasis on something. The fact that it might exist elsewhere, doesn't mean the emphasis itself isn't particular to the style. But even if OSR and another subcategory both share the emphasis, those are still definitive traits. I don't see how pointing out the trait would be seen by anyone as toxic behavior. Certainly people might not agree with the assertion, and they may have counter examples to upset the assertion. If we've reached a point where people can't say "this attribute is something that is important to my preferred style of play"without it being seen as part of an old flame war, then I don't think we are capable of having a conversation at all. I feel like I've been very cordial and made several honest attempts to engage people who were upset by my posts. I don't feel like I've done anything wrong though in the way I've presented my position.
 

It's a clear and defined line. There are those that have tried to hijack it (and in many ways have been successful in that with their presentation to many who never knew what the OSR was all about in the first place), but they cannot define nor change what they (the original individuals who played and created the OSR and such items) are or were.
Just to be clear, you think that Castles & Crusades is over-reaching by calling itself OSR? That it is factually incorrect for someone, burned out on the complexities of late-cycle Pathfinder and 4E, to consider 3.0 as an Old School game?
 

"I have noted that a lot of OS discussions include discussion faith in GM abilities as a major point. What role does this take in New School play?"

Because, in my memory of history that "faith in GM abilities," isn't tied to school. It is tied to Edition Wars. Specifically, it arose as a criticism of 3e, specifically due to its comprehensive rules and presentation of a formulae for everything down to encounter creation, and later extended to 4e which had different structure, but also tried to be comprehensive. The designers have since said these were attempts to reach a goal they thought was important to players - ensuring consistency of play across tables. However, it got interpreted by some as a decision to take the choices away from the GM, because the GM was not trusted. This was, of course, countered with stories that GM had a tendency to be self-aggrandizing and abusive, and maybe folks who felt a strong need to keep power maybe shouldn't be trusted with it... and the arguments got toxic.

But, most other games that are often labelled 'New School' don't have rules that are comprehensive, and very specifically have aspects that call for a lot of GM judgement in run-time play. The whole "don't trust the GM" thing *just doesn't exist* in these games. Folks who were sore about design changes assigned these traits to the style, but they aren't actually common.

And, if you couple with questions, that gives a frame for digging around and seeing what we can find are common to one genre of game or another.

As I mentioned before, I was thinking of something different by New School. I do think though, that faith in a GM's ability to be fair, and faith in GM authority, is an important dividing line in the community. The reason so many people in the OSR bring it up, is because it really is one of the more common criticisms you hear from people outside the style. That said, I don't think the line around this issue falls cleanly on a particular style as much as clusters of styles and personalities. Like you point out, 3E had a pretty comprehensive rules system, and a rule for just about everything, so there is one line (and matches my experience with 3E and Pathfinder expectations). I've encountered it at narrative leaning forums as well (not from everyone but either as a byproduct of approaches that distribute GM powers to players for story purposes, or as a byproduct of the person's underlying gaming philosophy---there is a point of view out there that is morally skeptical of GM authority for example). I'd be curious to get a sense of the posters here what their feelings are regarding GM authority, faith in GM objectivity/ability to render rulings regularly, etc.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I think mainstream play might be a better label than new school. But I do think there is something real here. Though honestly, I use the term new school all the time, and usually all I mean by that is 'the current and most prevalent style of play I encounter'. I will say I can understand where the OP is coming from, because when you do things more old school, you do often bump into people who have expectations that are more mainstream and current, and often it seems to come down to things like 'where is the story?', 'where are the planned encounters?', 'where are the character arcs' etc. I don't know that you can define a whole style of play this way, but I could easily compose a list of the most common issues that come up for players who are more accustomed to playing things like recent editions of D&D and Pathfinder.
So is your sense of Mainstream/NSRPG basically D&D 3-5e/Pathfinder? And many of the other games that we have discussed previously, such as Fate, PbtA/DW, Blades in the Dark, etc., represent something else to you other than Mainstream/NSRPG? If so, then that may provide a substantial sense of clarity while cutting down some of the heat of the debate.

I will say, it isn't usually that big of a deal when it does arise. And I typically do try to cater to the tastes of all at the table as much as possible. But I think it just represents a divide that exists. Some people never had the problems or frustrations I had with gaming in the mid-2000s. I was getting very frustrated with how things felt too planned out, not spontaneous enough and too structured around things like encounter levels and other things that were the norm at the time. Not everyone had these frustrations, but if you did have them, and you went back to older editions or found the OSR, you started developing a whole different set of expectations from play than the mainstream of the hobby. And you often found these expectations led to a much more satisfying result. So when you bring in someone who just never had these issues, or is a newcomer to the hobby and isn't even aware of things like the OSR or older editions, then it can be jarring for them. What I try to do is establish if this is a person who would like my style of play once they understand it, or establish if they have genuinely different taste and expectations than I do. If the latter, I'll explain that I can only really run games in the way that I find manageable, but I will try to accommodate them. I am fine doing this with other styles as well.
My own players and I have had our own issues with 5e and a growing sense of dissatisfaction with it. (And 3e/Pathfinder is far too rules heavy for our collective tastes.)
 

That's not quite right. I get what [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] is getting at. In newer games, a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to determining how to adjudicate a situation is often already done for you by the system. You aren't expected to come up with entirely new mechanics, whole cloth, very often.

Like I mentioned before, in a new school game, when a player attempts something that's not specifically prescribed by the mechanics, usually there is some sort of fall back mechanic like, say, Savage World's Rule of 4 (any final score higher than 4 is a success). It's not like in, say, AD&D, when you ask DM's how to jump over a pit and get ten different answers, none of which are actual mechanics in the system itself.

I can see what [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] means here by OSR players being more "optimistic" in their view of the GM. They have to be. They're playing systems where the GM is expected to repeatedly create new mechanics as needed.

It is something OSR bloggers actively discuss. It comes up a lot. But it is also something I have just personally encountered with other gamers who might be skeptical of any number of OSR approaches (often the criticism is centered on the either the ability or the possibility of a GM fairly adjudicating in the manner OSR adherents describe). And, as I said in the other post, I have even encountered people who object on moral ground to GMs having as much authority as they do in OSR games (not that that amount of GM authority is unique to OSR---it is just so essential to the style of play functioning).
 

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