Will you make transsexual Elves canon in your games ?

epithet said:

Well, no--the point I'm trying to make is that gender exists because of gender dimorphism in the animal kingdom, which serves the purpose of reproduction. I'm agreeing that humans have made more out of it than that for ourselves, but the origin of gender is all about the origin of offspring.

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Gender has nothing to do with offspring or sexual reproduction and everything to the way societies have constructed gender roles. Once again, there is nothing inherently biological in the formation or proscription of gender roles.

Hell, if gender roles were as linked to reproduction in humans as you suggest, we would all trace our lineage matrilinearly, and monogamy would not be the norm. The dominance of patrilineage and monogamy suggest that there absolutely no link between society's constructed gender roles and any biological imperative regarding reproduction.

You've made a couple of assertions which are telling. First was that no authority would consider gender to have anything to do with biology, and the second was your statement that no authority has ever considered the "singular they" to be bad grammar. These statements suggest the possibility that you consider agreement with your current position on these issues to be necessary for a person to have authority with regard to the issue. It suggests that you are A Believer, that you are a person of faith on this issue.

And that suggests that I should drop the discussion.

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One of those was admittedly a hyperbole that I should have face-checked and corrected before posting; that's on me. That said, at least I'm appealing to those who would be considering authorities on the subject. You simply keep re-asserting that biology and gender are inextricably, as if these were simply common sense and not concepts obviously in dispute, with little attempt to back it up and absolutely no evidence that such a belief is backed by any sort of scientific community. If you have any -modern- studies to link to, please share them. I'm always happy to learn.

If a speak with a sense of confidence, I do so not because I have faith, but because I have the knowledge, study, and experience to understand what it is I am talking about. This is only an example of "belief" or "faith" in the sense that I have greater "faith" in academic research than I do in what appears to be your "gut" feel for "common sense".

The ability to be transgendered has existed since the beginning - polymorph can make one transgendered much more efficiently than modern medicine.

I won't allow the "easy shifting" implied by the OP... not because its offensive (tho' it does offend my religious sensitivities) but because it's effectively a free polymorph daily, and that's more power than I think a race should carry without an experience hit.

aramis erak said:

The ability to be transgendered has existed since the beginning - polymorph can make one transgendered much more efficiently than modern medicine.

I won't allow the "easy shifting" implied by the OP... not because its offensive (tho' it does offend my religious sensitivities) but because it's effectively a free polymorph daily, and that's more power than I think a race should carry without an experience hit.

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I agree to an extent with the latter. Depending on the interpretation of the ability it could be any of the following:
Hard Closed: 4 distinct appearances for each of "Male", "Female", "Both" and "Neither". All of which bear a strong resemblance to each other (like twins when one is male and the other female).
Closed: 4 distinct appearances for each of "Male", "Female", "Both" and "Neither". All of which have a fixed appearance, but need not resemble each other.
Open: 4 different sex options. The appearance of which is determined each day.
Soft Open: A spectrum of sex options ranging from Extreme Male to Extreme Female and all the colors inbetween, with the appearances equally as varied.

The first two I see as less of a problem to include in the game. Each "appearance" has the chance of being linked back to you, making using the ability as a trick to get out of trouble limited. The latter two I have trouble with since yes, it's basically a free "Alter Self" at least within the fact that you still have pointy ears. This isn't a huge problem at higher levels though, only at low levels. And the fact that it lasts ALL DAY is both a buff in terms of spell duration, but a nerf in terms of you still have to hid the old fashioned way in case someone catches on.

Huh. It never even occurred to me to read the ability as anything other than what [MENTION=93444]Sunseeker[/MENTION] is defining as "hard closed." You're changing sex, not who you are or anything else about you. I see no reason for--and wouldn't allow--any other changes to appearance. That strikes me as not just mechanically imbalanced but outside the parameters of the ability's theme.

Sunseeker said:

I agree to an extent with the latter. Depending on the interpretation of the ability it could be any of the following:
Hard Closed: 4 distinct appearances for each of "Male", "Female", "Both" and "Neither". All of which bear a strong resemblance to each other (like twins when one is male and the other female).
Closed: 4 distinct appearances for each of "Male", "Female", "Both" and "Neither". All of which have a fixed appearance, but need not resemble each other.
Open: 4 different sex options. The appearance of which is determined each day.
Soft Open: A spectrum of sex options ranging from Extreme Male to Extreme Female and all the colors inbetween, with the appearances equally as varied.

The first two I see as less of a problem to include in the game. Each "appearance" has the chance of being linked back to you, making using the ability as a trick to get out of trouble limited. The latter two I have trouble with since yes, it's basically a free "Alter Self" at least within the fact that you still have pointy ears. This isn't a huge problem at higher levels though, only at low levels. And the fact that it lasts ALL DAY is both a buff in terms of spell duration, but a nerf in terms of you still have to hid the old fashioned way in case someone catches on.

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All of which is a hassle I really don't care for.

If someone wants to be other-gendered (Functional Hermaphrodite, Non-functional hermaphrodite, Functional Female with non-reproductive male parts, functional male with non-reproductive female parts, no parts besides the ureter, etc.), fine, but stick with it. Any disadvantage or advantage these have balances out over time... the more unusual one's genitalia and the less they fit one's preferences, the less likely physical romance is to be found and last, and the more likely to experience both public disdain and private curiosity; sometimes inappropriate curiosity.

One thing 5E does that doesn't help is that a polymorph is no longer "Permanent until dispelled or saved against"... Which, in 3E and before, was the result of a 4th level Polymorph other. A near-permanent change. Now, it's a more complete but non-extensible Alter-Other.

A permanent change in 5E is a 9th level spell - True Polymorph - which requires an hour and a 17th level caster. (Bard, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock). Prior editions (3.5 and earlier), it was 4th level. So, in 3.X, it was pretty reasonable to expect any large town to have a caster capable of it... not cheap... but available. And some of them may do it once just for the asking.

Mouseferatu said:

Huh. It never even occurred to me to read the ability as anything other than what [MENTION=93444]Sunseeker[/MENTION] is defining as "hard closed." You're changing sex, not who you are or anything else about you. I see no reason for--and wouldn't allow--any other changes to appearance. That strikes me as not just mechanically imbalanced but outside the parameters of the ability's theme.

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I don't personally have any particular objection to any of them. I think the concern of someone using them for roguey shenanigans is fairly narrow. Someone doing that is more likely to be abusing the purpose of the ability.

aramis erak said:

All of which is a hassle I really don't care for.

If someone wants to be other-gendered (Functional Hermaphrodite, Non-functional hermaphrodite, Functional Female with non-reproductive male parts, functional male with non-reproductive female parts, no parts besides the ureter, etc.), fine, but stick with it. Any disadvantage or advantage these have balances out over time... the more unusual one's genitalia and the less they fit one's preferences, the less likely physical romance is to be found and last, and the more likely to experience both public disdain and private curiosity; sometimes inappropriate curiosity.

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I think that's really the players call on what sort of sex experience they want to have, if any.

The ability isn't there so one can be "other" gendered. It's there specifically to allow for people who feel like one or more or less at any given time. "Sticking with" a sex is explicitly what the ability is there to allow you to avoid. And I'm really not seeing what value "sticking with" one sex (of any flavor) actually adds to anything at all.

One thing 5E does that doesn't help is that a polymorph is no longer "Permanent until dispelled or saved against"... Which, in 3E and before, was the result of a 4th level Polymorph other. A near-permanent change. Now, it's a more complete but non-extensible Alter-Other.

A permanent change in 5E is a 9th level spell - True Polymorph - which requires an hour and a 17th level caster. (Bard, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock). Prior editions (3.5 and earlier), it was 4th level. So, in 3.X, it was pretty reasonable to expect any large town to have a caster capable of it... not cheap... but available. And some of them may do it once just for the asking.

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Riiiiight, I'm not even going to get into how you think having to find a high-level caster provide a one-time service that can dispelled at any random time provides any sort of representation at all.

Sunseeker said:

I think that's really the players call on what sort of sex experience they want to have, if any.

The ability isn't there so one can be "other" gendered. It's there specifically to allow for people who feel like one or more or less at any given time. "Sticking with" a sex is explicitly what the ability is there to allow you to avoid. And I'm really not seeing what value "sticking with" one sex (of any flavor) actually adds to anything at all.

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Exactly the hassle I don't want at my table. I have enough trouble remembering who has chosen what gender already, let alone with it changing. I see no fun in it as a GM, and the people I know who would be likely to use of it are NOT open minded, but simply into doing whatever pisses off the GM fastest without getting ejected from the game.

Want to play a physiologically-fluid character? Go play at someone else's table; I don't want the hassle.

Want to play a Founder in Star Trek? Go play at someone else's table.

A Dralasite in Star Frontiers? About as fluid as I'll tolerate for a PC. (since they're Asexual, reproducing by budding, that's an intentional play on words.)

Riiiiight, I'm not even going to get into how you think having to find a high-level caster provide a one-time service that can dispelled at any random time provides any sort of representation at all.

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It cannot be dispelled. It's a permanent transformation on the 9th level, at least if the caster can maintain an hour's concentration. Permanent spells cannot be dispelled. Nor can instant ones, but that's a side point. Might want to read the rules; it really helps one to know what someone's talking about when critiquing.

It's overpowered to have the lasting transmutation as a racial when it's emulating a 9th level spell's function, even limited to one's own subspecies/species.

epithet said:

At the most basic level, a (mammalian) female has morphology for bearing live young, and a male for impregnating a female.

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Well, only math has really exact definitions. Biology and sociology are more squidgey. But, let us take this for a moment.

You said, "female" and "male". Not Woman and Man. When someone says, "Quit your whining and be a man!" they are most decidedly NOT suggesting you step out and fertilize some ova. They are talking about your meeting some expectations of behavior - that is mostly a social construct, not a biological issue. We could argue for very long periods of time about whether those expectations ever made any sense. But the fact of the matter is that the majority of them ceased to be all that relevant after the Industrial Revolution - the time after which males in our culture stopped needing to personally face down things with yard-long horns in order to put a steak on the dinner table.

If you get to a point where you say none of that matters and your gender is based only upon your declaration of same, then what does it mean to be a woman, or a man, or female, or male?

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That is an excellent question. For this discussion, we don't actually need to know the full answer. What we need to know is that "man" does not need to equal "genetically male*", and "woman" does not equal "genetically female". A typical way of dealing with this is to say that man and woman denote gender - those are expectations that are socially influenced. Male and female denote sex.

On a certain level, to be sure, it doesn't matter at all. A person can call himself whatever he wants, live however he wants, and enjoy whatever relationships other consenting people wish to share.

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No. A person SHOULD be able to call themselves whatever they want, live how they want, and all that. If the reality matched that, I daresay this whole discussion would be unnecessary.

That's all fine, but there seems to be an additional level of expectation place upon everyone else to carefully use that person's terminology. That seems unreasonable to the point of being impossible.

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Oh? Really?

You can remember that your friend who is named James prefers to be called Jim. You can hold the fact that Rebecca is okay with Becky, but will slap you if you call her "Bek". You can remember honorifics and such - Dr. Prof. Miss Mrs. Ms. Mr. Jr. and the III. You can even switch forms of address as dictated by social situation - at work it may be Dr. Smith, but at home it is Mrs. Walters. But keeping the pronoun straight is too much for you? Your brain stores specific information about every named individual in your world already. Are you sure the issue is that you can't? Or is it that you can't be bothered?




*Note this squidgeyness of biology - I had to specify "genetically" male, because there are cases where that morphology you mention does not match the genes, either by early accident, or by later medical design.

aramis erak said:

Exactly the hassle I don't want at my table. I have enough trouble remembering who has chosen what gender already, let alone with it changing. I see no fun in it as a GM, and the people I know who would be likely to use of it are NOT open minded, but simply into doing whatever pisses off the GM fastest without getting ejected from the game.

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Oh dear me, whatever isn't fun for the DM just has do go! Right out! Out out out! An oh me oh my whatever will I do if I actually have to keep my players in line!?

That's you. That's what you sound like.

Want to play a physiologically-fluid character? Go play at someone else's table; I don't want the hassle.

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You seemed perfectly fine with a myriad of "other" sex options about 2 posts ago, but being able to change once a day is too much for you? Me thinks thou dost protesteth too much.

It cannot be dispelled. It's a permanent transformation on the 9th level, at least if the caster can maintain an hour's concentration. Permanent spells cannot be dispelled. Nor can instant ones, but that's a side point. Might want to read the rules; it really helps one to know what someone's talking about when critiquing.

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Actually that's not correct. We've had several threads on the subject before. Per some twitter responses, only the magic remains permanent, and thus continuing its effect as long as the magic is there. The magic can still be dispelled.

It's overpowered to have the lasting transmutation as a racial when it's emulating a 9th level spell's function, even limited to one's own subspecies/species.

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Lolz, yes, because being able to switch from a male elf, to a female elf, to a neither male or female elf is equivelent to a 9th level spell that can literally turn players into full-blown dragons, giants and other incredibly powerful monsters.

I can see you're really worked up over this, so let me just finish by saying: it's your table, do whatever you darn well please. I only responded to you initially to explain that I saw different interpretations of the ability and some of them were more easy to implement. You clearly have some issue with this ability beyond its power, because your reaction is WAY out of line with what it actually provides.