D&D 5E Expected Additions to SRD 1.2

Nellisir said:

Creation is defined as the bringing of something into existence. On a conceptual level, I think that does carry the impetus of being new. I don't "create" a bookshelf; I build one. "Bookshelf" is not a new or novel concept. My execution of it might be different, but I'm still replicating an existing concept.

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I disagree completely. I don't believe that creating something requires that the thing be new, conceptually or otherwise. Creation does not require innovation.

Alzrius said:

The "infinite number of pages" argument strikes me as being disingenuous. It doesn't need to be infinite; rather, it's able to be as long as it needs to be to do whatever the author wants it to do. The idea of "X pages that are spent re-hashing material we've already seen is X pages that are wasted" is completely false, since that presumes that those pages would have been spent on something else, when in fact it simply means those pages wouldn't have existed to begin with.

Likewise, the "time wasted that could have been spent elsewhere" argument is similarly unmoving; it carries the implication that the time that's being spent on that would have been spent on a similar endeavor...

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If a 320-page PDF contains 80 pages of material that exists to work around stuff that's in the PHB but not open, that's 80 pages that the author felt had to be there for his book to work - without them, there would be no book. Effort went in to generating those pages for no good reason.

That means that 320-page PDF will be priced at a higher price point that a 240-page one (both simply because it's longer, and because it's taken more effort to create), but gives me no additional benefit for doing so - I'm paying more because the author felt he had to provide those workarounds, and because providing those workarounds took time and effort.

delericho said:

If a 320-page PDF contains 80 pages of material that exists to work around stuff that's in the PHB but not open, that's 80 pages that the author felt had to be there for his book to work - without them, there would be no book. Effort went in to generating those pages for no good reason.

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Leaving aside the issue that it's a good reason if the author felt that it was - namely, that the good reason was that it made the book work - that leaves aside the issue of convenience versus necessity. The author could very much have felt that those materials didn't have to be there, but were simply more convenient in doing so (e.g. not having to cross-reference the PHB).

That means that 320-page PDF will be priced at a higher price point that a 240-page one (both simply because it's longer, and because it's taken more effort to create), but gives me no additional benefit for doing so - I'm paying more because the author felt he had to provide those workarounds, and because providing those workarounds took time and effort.

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Except that it's not axiomatic that the book will necessarily cost more because of that; you're operating under the presumption that that's necessarily so, when there's nothing to prove that that's the case, especially since there's no 240-page version of the PDF without that material for you to make the comparison to. How do you know that the 320-page PDF isn't being sold at the same price it would otherwise, and the author isn't simply willing to take the (altogether minor) loss in order to provide you with 80 pages worth of bonus content?

Saying "I'm losing money because I have to buy all of this book instead of just the parts I want" doesn't strike me as being a reasonable argument.

Alzrius said:

Leaving aside the issue that it's a good reason if the author felt that it was - namely, that the good reason was that it made the book work - that leaves aside the issue of convenience versus necessity. The author could very much have felt that those materials didn't have to be there, but were simply more convenient in doing so (e.g. not having to cross-reference the PHB).

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The topic at hand is material that's in the PHB but not in the SRD, and the workarounds that that requires. Reframing it to a matter of mere convenience is a different debate.

Except that it's not axiomatic that the book will necessarily cost more because of that;

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That's why I went with 80 pages of material rather than, say, 10. The latter is small enough that the PDF may or may not cost more, but with 80 pages, amounting to a quarter of the book, there's little doubt.

the author isn't simply willing to take the (altogether minor) loss in order to provide you with 80 pages worth of bonus content?

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80 pages in a 320-page document isn't a minor loss, and if it's workarounds for PHB but not SRD material it's not bonus material, it's material that the author feels he needs but which actually adds no actual value.

Saying "I'm losing money because I have to buy all of this book instead of just the parts I want" doesn't strike me as being a reasonable argument.

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I'm paying for things that I don't want and that actually reduce the value of the book. If the material was in the SRD in the first place, those workarounds wouldn't be necessary, and while mentally translating from "Woodland Gnome" to "Forest Gnome" every time is a minor annoyance, it's more of an annoyance than not having to do it. The fewer workarounds are required, the better.

delericho said:

The topic at hand is material that's in the PHB but not in the SRD, and the workarounds that that requires. Reframing it to a matter of mere convenience is a different debate.

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I don't believe that to be the case; you've posited that the author feels that such material "has" to be there, that it's a necessary work-around, and I don't grant that particular premise.

That's why I went with 80 pages of material rather than, say, 10. The latter is small enough that the PDF may or may not cost more, but with 80 pages, amounting to a quarter of the book, there's little doubt.

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Again, that's a presumption, and not one that I think is necessarily the case. I've seen larger works of original material than that given away for free before, so I don't believe that "there's little doubt" is so.

80 pages in a 320-page document isn't a minor loss, and if it's workarounds for PHB but not SRD material it's not bonus material, it's material that the author feels he needs but which actually adds no actual value.

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Once again, you're presuming this to be self-evident when it's actually anything but. It could very well be considered bonus material in that the author recognizes that you're going to have the PHB on-hand if you're using this material, but has provided an OGL equivalent purely to reduce page-flipping. The author does not feel that he "needs" it there, nor does he find it to add no actual value.

I'm paying for things that I don't want and that actually reduce the value of the book. If the material was in the SRD in the first place, those workarounds wouldn't be necessary, and while mentally translating from "Woodland Gnome" to "Forest Gnome" every time is a minor annoyance, it's more of an annoyance than not having to do it. The fewer workarounds are required, the better.

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That only reduces the value of the book to you, and beyond your personal opinion there's no particular substance to that objection, since you can't establish that that material has driven up the cost of the book, nor that other people don't want said material. Hence, you don't have any particular point upon which you can say that the value of the book has been reduced in any capacity beyond whether or not you yourself would want to buy it. Others will find that their mileage varies.

Insofar as being more convenient if that material were in the SRD in the first place, that's the problem that these hypothetical new additions fix.

Alzrius said:

I don't believe that to be the case; you've posited that the author feels that such material "has" to be there, that it's a necessary work-around, and I don't grant that particular premise.

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Then it's not the same discussion, and there's little point in continuing.

delericho said:

Then it's not the same discussion, and there's little point in continuing.

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If you're saying that we should agree to disagree, then I don't agree to that.

Alzrius said:

If you're saying that we should agree to disagree, then I don't agree to that.

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Okay, I'll agree to disagree one whether we should agree to disagree.

Agreed? Or shall we agree to disagree on that, too?

delericho said:

Okay, I'll agree to disagree one whether we should agree to disagree.

Agreed? Or shall we agree to disagree on that, too?

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Let's take it by degrees.