D&D 5E Expected Additions to SRD 1.2

empireofchaos

First Post
I'm sure you can say "in the world of Buubitybhutz there are no clerics, druids, or warlocks." Or "No class besides wizards and clerics can learn and cast magic". You can even create a new subclass that is similar (animal trainer ranger or lighting domain) as long as you are not just reusing things verbatim.

I guess the only place this fails is if your world hinges on ip-locked content (a nation of yuan-ti, the mountain range home to Goliaths) but I'd that is the case, you have to remove the race for a substitute or ditch the material.

To be honest though, I kinda hope the OGL/DMGuild split will move the "almost core, but my elves are taller" products towards DMGD and general compatibility with the core game and make the OGL a place for more wild and radical changes. The game needs more M&Ms and Spycrafts and less "Gareeze Wurld" Greyhawk clones.

Yeah, saying "no clerics, druids and warlocks" is easy. I just want to be able to include subclasses in such a way as to avoid calling a Beastmaster an Animal Trainer, and reproducing the Beastmaster write-up with a few stylistic changes here and there. I'd rather just say something like "Rangers: Guard the northern frontier. Experts at Tracking and Wilderness Survival. Two types - Archers - experts in bringing down specific quarry, and Animal Trainers, who make friends with beasts." Presumably, everyone will understand.

Agree on the rest. Aside from settings that are new and unique, there are (e.g. non-faux-medieval Europe or Japan) settings that have been glaringly missing from the game from the get-go, so lots of niches to be filled there, too.
 

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Nellisir

Hero
To be honest though, I kinda hope the OGL/DMGuild split will move the "almost core, but my elves are taller" products towards DMGD and general compatibility with the core game and make the OGL a place for more wild and radical changes. The game needs more M&Ms and Spycrafts and less "Gareeze Wurld" Greyhawk clones.

Personally, I think the best things that came out of the OGL were exactly the sort that took the SRD as a stripped-down, basic toolkit and ran away with it. Mutants and Masterminds, Spycraft, Arcana Unearthed, and a giant chunk of the OSR movement. Pathfinder is a weird sort of exception.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Personally, I think the best things that came out of the OGL were exactly the sort that took the SRD as a stripped-down, basic toolkit and ran away with it. Mutants and Masterminds, Spycraft, Arcana Unearthed, and a giant chunk of the OSR movement. Pathfinder is a weird sort of exception.
I note all of those are self-contained games.

WotC would probably like for things that assume you have bought the core three books to take precedence this time.

Especially adventures, since those are as essential to the success of a game line as they are hard to profit from.
 

BryonD

Hero
I note all of those are self-contained games.

WotC would probably like for things that assume you have bought the core three books to take precedence this time.

Especially adventures, since those are as essential to the success of a game line as they are hard to profit from.
Pretty much the D20 STL of 3E reimagined for today.
That went well for a while. But once people realized that they could completely ignore it, it stopped being a motivator.
I predict that everything will be a lot more even keeled this time. And the actual "D&D" storefront is a much nicer carrot than a little logo. So I'm not negative.
But if someone wants to go a different direction the OGL allows it and WotC's preference won't matter.

WotC will ultimately still benefit.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I predict that everything will be a lot more even keeled this time. And the actual "D&D" storefront is a much nicer carrot than a little logo. So I'm not negative.

As I consider it, that storefront where pretty much anyone can publish material is pretty darned brilliant.

But if someone wants to go a different direction the OGL allows it and WotC's preference won't matter.

WotC will ultimately still benefit.

And, given that they have *seen* Pathfinder and Mutants and Masterminds, we kind of have to assume they are ready for, and okay with that this time around.

It seems rather in-line with the whole "evergreen" idea. The reserve just enough so that there's not much point to actually republishing the core rulebooks, but if you want to take the base mechanics and run with them into a different corner, that's okay.
 

BryonD

Hero
As I consider it, that storefront where pretty much anyone can publish material is pretty darned brilliant.

And, given that they have *seen* Pathfinder and Mutants and Masterminds, we kind of have to assume they are ready for, and okay with that this time around.

It seems rather in-line with the whole "evergreen" idea. The reserve just enough so that there's not much point to actually republishing the core rulebooks, but if you want to take the base mechanics and run with them into a different corner, that's okay.

Agree completely.

I don't think we will see anything like the 3E era BOOM, but it will be a solid, steady "evergreen" thing.
And you are exactly right, WotC knows what they are getting into. It isn't *ALL* good, but the net package is still great.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Just to be awkward: I'm yet to see a PDF that has an infinite number of pages. Any time that the writer spends generating a workaround for something in the PHB but not the SRD is time they're not spending on other things. I'd rather that be minimised as far as possible.

The "infinite number of pages" argument strikes me as being disingenuous. It doesn't need to be infinite; rather, it's able to be as long as it needs to be to do whatever the author wants it to do. The idea of "X pages that are spent re-hashing material we've already seen is X pages that are wasted" is completely false, since that presumes that those pages would have been spent on something else, when in fact it simply means those pages wouldn't have existed to begin with.

Likewise, the "time wasted that could have been spent elsewhere" argument is similarly unmoving; it carries the implication that the time that's being spent on that would have been spent on a similar endeavor, when it could have come from anything, be it sleeping, eating, or watching TV. As such, there's no real merit to that line of thinking.

Quite frankly, if the writer feels what they're doing is worth spending their time on, nobody else gets to critique their decision.

There is however, both a finite amount of time available to read and a finite brain capacity to parse and verify that this section is both already known and exactly the same as a previous added segment from all the other optional material grokked..

Which is a good argument for why it's better for somebody to create more mechanically-identical OGC that can be used when someone wants a PHB stand-in, rather than having to create an almost-but-not-quite-the-same facsimile over and over.

The act of creation always fills some need, if only in the creator. If the creator hopes for other people to appreciate and use and even pay for their creation, it will need to meet their needs, too. (This isn't always a concern, but it isn't an unreasonable assumption when talking about the OGL and the SRD)

This is patently false; you don't get to tell someone else that their creation has filled a "need" of theirs. Only they get to say that, and if they don't believe that it was needed or necessary on their part, then you're nobody to tell them otherwise. As you said, that's not always a concern, and moreover is an assumption.

It's also true that re-printing the wood elf verbatim isn't really much of an act of creation. You're not making anything new with that reprint.

That's not true in any way, shape, or form. Creating something is under no particular impetus that the creation be new. Plenty of people make things (e.g. furniture, tools, cars, etc.) that already exist; that doesn't make it any less an act of creation.

Time and money and effort are all limited. Our lives are limited, our attention spans are limited.

As noted above, this particular argument is a sop. If someone else sees a particular creative endeavor as being worthwhile, you don't get to say "well I'd prefer that you need not bother doing that."

If you want to truck in pure hypothetical ideology, you don't need advice. No one can physically stop you from publishing a verbatim copy of the PHB and selling it on your website for $2,000 a pop.

Using ridiculous examples (e.g. "physically stop you," "$2,000 a pop") doesn't make the point any less true.

There are just consequences for that action.

One of those consequences is likely to be that not many people buy your PHB.

So what? That might matter to some people, but there are plenty of others for whom making something and putting it out there is enough, with the money being a pleasant but wholly unnecessary bonus.

Talking about practical consequences is nothing more than moving the goalposts.
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
This is patently false; you don't get to tell someone else that their creation has filled a "need" of theirs. Only they get to say that, and if they don't believe that it was needed or necessary on their part, then you're nobody to tell them otherwise. As you said, that's not always a concern, and moreover is an assumption.
Actions have motivations, yes. This isn't exactly a controversial statement.

That's not true in any way, shape, or form. Creating something is under no particular impetus that the creation be new. Plenty of people make things (e.g. furniture, tools, cars, etc.) that already exist; that doesn't make it any less an act of creation.
Your analogy is flawed. A chair you create didn't exist before you created it. The circumstances of its creation are unique. The text of the wood elf exists before you reproduce it. Reproducing that text in and of itself is not unique.


As noted above, this particular argument is a sop. If someone else sees a particular creative endeavor as being worthwhile, you don't get to say "well I'd prefer that you need not bother doing that."
Of course I do. I'm free to offer my opinion on others' creations, just as anyone is.

Using ridiculous examples (e.g. "physically stop you," "$2,000 a pop") doesn't make the point any less true.

So what? That might matter to some people, but there are plenty of others for whom making something and putting it out there is enough, with the money being a pleasant but wholly unnecessary bonus.

Talking about practical consequences is nothing more than moving the goalposts.

Practical consequences were embedded in the initial question:
I'm honestly wondering just how close to the line someone could tread, with regards to trying to clone existing sub-races/sub-classes, etc.
How close to the line they could tread? Well, without significant practical consequences, pretty close. And in my opinion, their limited time and effort and money could be better spent in endeavors other than seeing how close to that line they could tread, in general.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Actions have motivations, yes. This isn't exactly a controversial statement.

Having a motivation is not the same thing as saying that creating something is "fulfilling a need."

Your analogy is flawed. A chair you create didn't exist before you created it. The circumstances of its creation are unique. The text of the wood elf exists before you reproduce it. Reproducing that text in and of itself is not unique.

Except that's self-evidently not true; we're not talking about reproducing the text per se, but rather making an entry that uses the same game mechanics but with different flavor text.

Of course I do. I'm free to offer my opinion on others' creations, just as anyone is.

Except that it's not their creation that you're passing judgment on; you're telling them that that the fact that they created something at all isn't worthwhile, which quite frankly isn't your call to make. Whether or not they spent their time wisely is up to them, not you.

Practical consequences were embedded in the initial question:

Except that it's no longer the initial question that we're discussing. Now we're discussing whether doing so is worthwhile thing to do or not, and I'm reiterating that that's up to the individual who does so.

How close to the line they could tread? Well, without significant practical consequences, pretty close. And in my opinion, their limited time and effort and money could be better spent in endeavors other than seeing how close to that line they could tread, in general.

And I believe that passing judgment on how someone else chooses to spend their time and money is a character flaw. If they believe that what their doing is worth doing, then no one has the right to tell them otherwise (notwithstanding if they're doing something to hurt someone); that's pushing your values onto other people, and it's an ugly thing to do.
 
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Nellisir

Hero
That's not true in any way, shape, or form. Creating something is under no particular impetus that the creation be new. Plenty of people make things (e.g. furniture, tools, cars, etc.) that already exist; that doesn't make it any less an act of creation.
Creation is defined as the bringing of something into existence. On a conceptual level, I think that does carry the impetus of being new. I don't "create" a bookshelf; I build one. "Bookshelf" is not a new or novel concept. My execution of it might be different, but I'm still replicating an existing concept.

That said, someone IS going to replicate a lot of the material that didn't make it into the SRD and put it under the OGL so they can make money off of it for a month or so, because people are going to buy it. It'd be nice if someone brought all that stuff together and released it for free as SRD 5.1 or something, so we could all just add it to our virtual libraries, but I doubt that'll happen so easily.

And no, I'm busy right now.
 

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