Is Ranged really better than Melee?

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Now that I understand more why this conversation has been so strange, I had to return to this post.

I brought up the example of my archer doing more than half the total damage in the purple worm fight not to brag about how cool I was, but to point out that he did all that damage just standing in the middle of a big room. It wasn't bad@$$, it was boring. My teammates were all getting swallowed (and regurgitated), stung with poison tails, and generally having to make interesting decisions and trying to save each other and having a ton of fun doing it.

I just rolled the same handful of dice every turn. And with +2 from Archery Style I hit with every single arrow (I think 3-4 would have missed otherwise.)

I was far enough away that it would have taken the worm 2 turns to reach me, even with Dash. During which I could have also Dashed. And would have.

Yes, it was good party composition to have an effective archer. Yes, he needed melee to make it work.

And it was just...dumb. Boring. Bad game design.

There, I said it.

You might be surprised how much more effective the party is if your ranged characters play about 30-60ft away from the melee ones as opposed to much further and flat out running away when enemies chase them.

It’s not ranged itself that is the problem but the play style most adopt when using ranged. Do that and the party will be more effective and you will have your interesting decision points. It’s a win win.

stop playing ranged for self preservation and start playing it in a way to enhance team survivability. (That’s not done by standing back firing while allies take all the hits)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
You might be surprised how much more effective the party is if your ranged characters play about 30-60ft away from the melee ones as opposed to much further and flat out running away when enemies chase them.

It’s not ranged itself that is the problem but the play style most adopt when using ranged. Do that and the party will be more effective and you will have your interesting decision points. It’s a win win.

stop playing ranged for self preservation and start playing it in a way to enhance team survivability. (That’s not done by standing back firing while allies take all the hits)

No, that's wrong. That's like saying that the casters should get in there and hit things with their staves in order to distribute damage. The best way to enhance team survivability is to stand back and kill the thing as quickly as possible. Dead enemies don't do damage (usually...)

Our tanks have more health, higher AC, and all kinds of damage mitigating abilities. How on earth would putting the squishy archer in there to "spread the damage around" have improved things?
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
No, that's wrong. That's like saying that the casters should get in there and hit things with their staves in order to distribute damage. The best way to enhance team survivability is to stand back and kill the thing as quickly as possible. Dead enemies don't do damage (usually...)

Nothing inherently stops you from being 30-60 ft away and killing things as quickly as possible.

Our tanks have more health, higher AC, and all kinds of damage mitigating abilities. How on earth would putting the squishy archer in there to "spread the damage around" have improved things?

The only defensive option a melle vs ranged really has over the other is a shield. While a great defensive boost (if being used) it’s not like it makes them that much more survivable than a ranged character.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
You crazy. I use dodge all the time. It’s absolutely amazing

What really stops attacks is killing or completely incapacitating the enemy. Anything that doesn't involve that increases potential damage to you.

The thread is about melee vs range and mostly about martial pcs, their actions are better spent making all their attacks on the enemy to get their damage across. You are a melee PC (definition of the thread) so you need to get what you do (damage in most cases) over as fast as possible. Its more efficient to trade HP (a resource that is easily replenished) then use an action to possibly avoid being hit. Dodge would only have use for a martial melee PC if it would be assured to lead to more damage the next round then this round and the next round combined otherwise its the same damage just a round later. To me its only of use to avoid a certain death, then it has value if you would be down and then not revived the next round to act again.

There are few situations that it would be useful, if its for free or a bonus action, like a monk for example. But to trade all your attacks for possibly avoiding an enemies attack to save HP is way to high of a price to pay unless it would lead to immediate PC death. If you are a martial PC its would be better to nova as much as possible before you go down and then count on your party.

You also have the problem that intelligent creatures run by an intelligent DM will stop attacking a creature that is harder to hit and no threat (you are not attacking) and move to attack another PC.

If you are in these situations then your HP management is a problem or you have the way bigger problems of a potential TPK. Dodging then just delays the inevitable.


This could also be a difference in game styles. If you know your DM will just have all the enemies keep attacking the dodging PC this turn and leave everyone else alone, then dodge has a greater value.

I have seen it used maybe 4-5 times from a non-monk, non-rogue PC. Those types then usually take Mobile feat as it makes for greater action economy.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
The only defensive option a melee vs ranged really has over the other is a shield. While a great defensive boost (if being used) it’s not like it makes them that much more survivable than a ranged character.
Shield + Defense style perhaps, +3 AC. Or Rage for Resistance.

The party might want damage to fall on the Barbarian (if there is one) as healing put into them is doubled. An option for ranged characters is to carry a shield and one-handed weapon, ready to step in if needed. Mechanically, they could even stow their bow at the end of each of their turns, ready to make the switch.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
What really stops attacks is killing or completely incapacitating the enemy. Anything that doesn't involve that increases potential damage to you.

If you have a team with 4 or 5 PC's then stopping your attacks to be more defensive doesn't stop the enemies from being killed as the rest of your party can potentially attack and kill them.

The thread is about melee vs range and mostly about martial pcs, their actions are better spent making all their attacks on the enemy to get their damage across.

Simply not true.

You are a melee PC (definition of the thread) so you need to get what you do (damage in most cases) over as fast as possible. Its more efficient to trade HP (a resource that is easily replenished) then use an action to possibly avoid being hit.

This also is untrue. You are not factoring in teammates. I'm not saying you should always dodge. But it definitely should have a much larger role than you envision.

Dodge would only have use for a martial melee PC if it would be assured to lead to more damage the next round then this round and the next round combined otherwise its the same damage just a round later.

Having allies mean that when you dodge the enemies are still being damaged.

To me its only of use to avoid a certain death, then it has value if you would be down and then not revived the next round to act again.

That's because you highly undervalue it.

There are few situations that it would be useful, if its for free or a bonus action, like a monk for example. But to trade all your attacks for possibly avoiding an enemies attack to save HP is way to high of a price to pay unless it would lead to immediate PC death. If you are a martial PC its would be better to nova as much as possible before you go down and then count on your party.

Dodging doesn't necessarily compete with NOVA rounds and even then there are plenty of situations when dodging the first round when there are many more enemies capable of attacking you than using your NOVA abilities.

You also have the problem that intelligent creatures run by an intelligent DM will stop attacking a creature that is harder to hit and no threat (you are not attacking) and move to attack another PC.

I always assume the DM will play enemies (at least the ones that ought to be intelligent) somewhat intelligently. Why would you think I don't assume that? I also assume that the DM doesn't metagame my enemies. Do you make that assumption too?

So to me that means when I use the dodge action the enemies don't really know that's what I'm doing until they try to attack me. After the first attacks me they may learn if they are all intelligent and communicating enough. If not the enemies may very well still attack me as they don't immediately know that's what I'm doing.

If you are in these situations then your HP management is a problem or you have the way bigger problems of a potential TPK. Dodging then just delays the inevitable.

Again that's absolutely not true. Dodging is useful
1. It can force damage to be spread around after being moderately wounded. This also has the added effect that enemies that refocus on other allies may be less likely to focus back on you even after you start acting again.
2. In many situations it's as useful of a combat initiator as a NOVA.
3. It's an amazing tool to have in holding a choke point


Frankly all of your arguments against it sound like they assume you have no allies.


This could also be a difference in game styles. If you know your DM will just have all the enemies keep attacking the dodging PC this turn and leave everyone else alone, then dodge has a greater value.

And in normal games where enemies learn a bit as the fight goes.

I have seen it used maybe 4-5 times from a non-monk, non-rogue PC. Those types then usually take Mobile feat as it makes for greater action economy.

Then your in no place to say how useful it actually is. You have nearly no experience with it and there's no evidence that you have even attempted to analyze it in respect to a party success as opposed to individual contributions.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
If you have a party of 4-5 PCs and you don’t do your damage then party damage has decreased by 20-25%. That means the enemy dies slower and is alive longer to cause more damage and effects. Essentially you stunned yourself, since you can move.

You correct, over many years and plenty of games with many players and watching various games on YouTube and Twitch and years in these forums through various threads and optimization forumsI haven’t seen any evidence or threads or great examples of how OP and great dodge is ever. I never seen the dodge focused build in 5e.

Since it’s awesome and wonderful and great and you use it all the time please create a thread on it so you can share your wisdom since you have such experiences. Evidently I missed the awesomeness that dodge is, as did all the good people here since none posted a thread on the topic on its greatness. There is a thread where someone posted it was OP and then 4 pages of how it wasn’t, and a reddit saying essentially the same thing, I checked to make sure there wasn’t some awesomeness I was missing.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
IThen your in no place to say how useful it actually is. You have nearly no experience with it and there's no evidence that you have even attempted to analyze it in respect to a party success as opposed to individual contributions.

BTW I think you have done zero analysis either, just some personal experiences. You also have not kept statistics or done anything on how it relates to party success either, you just want to argue since you left feels is hurt.

So like I said start a thread on dodge usefulness and greatness and how much it contributes to party success to voluntarily do nothing on your turn except move. Include a section on how it balances out to do nothing except raise your personal AC against other actions that help win fights through damaging the enemy or incapacitating them or supporting the party through spells or prones or pushes, things like that.

Since this about the dodge action, not dodge for free or as a bonus action you can leave those out.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
If you have a party of 4-5 PCs and you don’t do your damage then party damage has decreased by 20-25%. That means the enemy dies slower and is alive longer to cause more damage and effects. Essentially you stunned yourself, since you can move.

You correct, over many years and plenty of games with many players and watching various games on YouTube and Twitch and years in these forums through various threads and optimization forumsI haven’t seen any evidence or threads or great examples of how OP and great dodge is ever. I never seen the dodge focused build in 5e.

Since it’s awesome and wonderful and great and you use it all the time please create a thread on it so you can share your wisdom since you have such experiences. Evidently I missed the awesomeness that dodge is, as did all the good people here since none posted a thread on the topic on its greatness. There is a thread where someone posted it was OP and then 4 pages of how it wasn’t, and a reddit saying essentially the same thing, I checked to make sure there wasn’t some awesomeness I was missing.

In case you missed it I started a thread on it 2 and a half hours ago.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
If you have a party of 4-5 PCs and you don’t do your damage then party damage has decreased by 20-25%. That means the enemy dies slower and is alive longer to cause more damage and effects. Essentially you stunned yourself, since you can move.
An efficiency advantage can be gained, however.

Say some opponents expect to deal 10 damage a turn, to a party HP pool of 100. While the party deals 10 damage a turn, to those opponent's HP pool of 100. Initiative will decide the outcome in this case, in the tenth turn.

If through one member dodging, the party reduces their damage by 3, while reducing their opponent's damage by 4? Those opponents will now take 17 turns to deplete the party HP pool. The party will take 15 turns to deplete their opponent's pool.

The numbers above are not representative, but the principle is: an efficiency gain can be achieved by dodging, that leads to a more likely victory. Additionally, any healing benefits from the same sort of efficiency, thereby freeing up resources for other things.

Some analysts, in ignoring defences, fail to appreciate the idea of efficiency, but that could be down to differences in how the game is run at their table. Key sensitivities are combat length and adventuring day: if a group's days are one encounter long, and their encounters are usually shorter than five rounds, all-out attack may be better.
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Upcoming Releases

Top