Is Ranged really better than Melee?

[clearstream]

melee either has better defense or does more damage or both when compared with ranged. Melee has that advantage as well as the advantage where damage is more likely to be spread over more party members than concentrated on fewer.

...typically melee characters do more damage and have more defense than ranged ones.

We might be in greater agreement than appears on the surface. Here you point out that melee has better defense or (ignoring CEx/SS silliness) does more damage, or both. A direct comparison could be a Defense style, sword-and-board Battlemaster, with an Archery style, longbow Battlemaster.

Sword-and-board will have +3 AC over the archer, all else being equal. Their damage is approximately the same, ignoring feats. Same number of attacks, same 1d8 die for the weapon. This would seem to assert that +3 AC = 150' range. It is clear then that damage + range is worth more than damage alone. As well as +3 AC, the melee doesn't suffer disadvantage when in close. So the ranged damage, compared with the melee damage, is compensated for twice.

This implies that ranged is worth more than melee; and perhaps your point can be restated that, generally, in 5th edition, melee characters enjoy benefits the make up for not having range. I think also, we have a decent handle on just why ranged is worth more than melee: reach, up-time, target selection, mitigation of return attacks.

Do you see what I mean? For me, it justifies looking hard at a feat like Sharpshooter which, even when not in conjunction with Crossbow Expert, can put ranged damage above melee. Agonizing Blast, on the other hand, is a very good attack, that overshadows other options for the Blast user, but it does not overshadow melee damage.

 

[Guest 6801328]

...if the front line is doing their job, the archer does just sit back and wail away.

That's fine if it takes some skill, by both the front line and the archer, to set everything up perfectly. But a rogue with sharpshooter and a longbow can be SIX HUNDRED feet away, shooting at a moving and actively defending target, and still get his sneak attack. Even with his friends blocking his view.

The perfect setup is really the rule, not the exception.

 

[Stalker0]

That's fine if it takes some skill, by both the front line and the archer, to set everything up perfectly. But a rogue with sharpshooter and a longbow can be SIX HUNDRED feet away, shooting at a moving and actively defending target, and still get his sneak attack. Even with his friends blocking his view.

The perfect setup is really the rule, not the exception.

So it sounds like your main concern in the argument isn't the damage of ranged, its the true "range" of ranged.

For example in 3e many ranged benefits fell away at 30 feet (Sneak Attack, Point Blank Shot).


On the other hand, 5e imposes greater penalty for "moderate ranges". For 3e with your composite bow you suffered a -2 to attack rolls from ranges 110 - 215. In 5e, starting at 150 you suffer disadvantage, which is a bigger penalty in most cases. Now 5e starts to win out more at lower ranges, but I find those ranges just don't occur the vast majority of the time.

 

[Guest 6801328]

So it sounds like your main concern in the argument isn't the damage of ranged, its the true "range" of ranged.

For example in 3e many ranged benefits fell away at 30 feet (Sneak Attack, Point Blank Shot).


On the other hand, 5e imposes greater penalty for "moderate ranges". For 3e with your composite bow you suffered a -2 to attack rolls from ranges 110 - 215. In 5e, starting at 150 you suffer disadvantage, which is a bigger penalty in most cases. Now 5e starts to win out more at lower ranges, but I find those ranges just don't occur the vast majority of the time.

I skipped 3e and 4e, so comparisons to those games don't mean much to me. Nor do I really care...I'm focusing on what it feels like to play this game.

And my beef is more than just the "range of ranged", it's "damage with no downside". Just as one example, your melee may have to spend a round taking the Dodge action. Or a million other things that might reduce their damage. The archer...just stands there and cranks out max damage.

If I'm playing a rogue, and we've got front-line fighters, there is no (mechanical) incentive to focus on melee. You have to put yourself in danger, it requires positioning, you can't Hide every turn. There should be advantages (other than the fun of it) that balance out the disadvantages, such that it's a hard decision in terms of mechanical optimization.

 

[Gladius Legis]

There wouldn't be a debate if it wasn't for the 5e feature that I dislike the most. Dex bonus to damage.

Just my opinion.

100% this.

Seriously:
1) Make STR the ONLY ability modifier ever that adds to weapon damage, ranged weapon damage included. And if your STR modifier is negative, that affects your ranged weapon damage, too.
2) Make it so crossbows can never add ability modifier to damage, such as via a new "mechanical" weapon property. Up crossbows' damage die one size bigger to compensate somewhat.

Those two changes would solve *so many* problems. And get rid of all those annoying 8 STR/20 DEX builds in the process.

And for good measure, 3) change Hexblade so CHA applies only to attack rolls, still need to use STR for damage.

 

[Guest 6801328]

100% this.

Seriously:
1) Make STR the ONLY ability modifier ever that adds to weapon damage, ranged weapon damage included. And if your STR modifier is negative, that affects your ranged weapon damage, too.
2) Make it so crossbows can never add ability modifier to damage, such as via a new "mechanical" weapon property. Up crossbows' damage die one size bigger to compensate somewhat.

Those two changes would solve *so many* problems. And get rid of all those annoying 8 STR/20 DEX builds in the process.

And for good measure, 3) change Hexblade so CHA applies only to attack rolls, still need to use STR for damage.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, one of my greatest wishes for the D&D franchise is that Str and Dex both contribute, in different ways, to your damage output. 14 Dex / 14 Str should be comparable to 18/10 or 10/18. Not exactly sure how that all works, but that's what I'd like to see.

 

[Umbran]

It wasn't a condescending personal attack, it was a lighthearted comment that you chose to be offended by. I guess I needed to put a smiley on it for you? My comment was mostly made so that others didn't misconstrue that silencers were anywhere near what Hollywood portrays them to be. Perhaps you need more fiber in your diet?

Except, if you weren't before, you now definitely are getting into condescending attack territory. Not so great, there.

Please do not stoop to this sort of thing again. Keep it civil. Don't make it personal - if you are addressing the qualities of the speaker, rather than the logic or factual content of the argument, you are basically putting a bullet in the brain of your argument, for all the good its correctness would do you. And, you're several times more likely to get a moderator give you the hairy eyeball and speak at you in colored text, telling you to knock it off.

So, please, take the quality of the rhetoric up a notch, and keep it there. Thanks, all.

 

[clearstream]

And for good measure, 3) change Hexblade so CHA applies only to attack rolls, still need to use STR for damage.

I'm curious about this. As written, it looks to me that Hexblades just barely keep up. What are you finding in play? What (if anything) is yielding distorting levels of damage?

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm curious about this. As written, it looks to me that Hexblades just barely keep up. What are you finding in play? What (if anything) is yielding distorting levels of damage?

Easy advantage + elven accuracy might do it?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I'm curious about this. As written, it looks to me that Hexblades just barely keep up. What are you finding in play? What (if anything) is yielding distorting levels of damage?

As I understand it, the Hexblade class itself isn't the issue that a few of the posters have: - Its the synergy that a Hexblade dip brings to other class combinations.

One, or a few levels of Hexplade allows picking up some class abilities that make other classes like Paladins and/or Sorcerors for example, much more powerful.