3.5 breakdown at high levels?

MrGrenadine

Explorer
This might be incredibly obvious to everyone else, but I'm a bit unclear about what folks mean when they say that the math breaks down at high levels in D&D 3.5.

Is there a particular thread I could check out which would explain the math in more detail?
 

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Darrin Drader

Explorer
I may miss a few points here, so hopefully someone will chime in and give me an assist.

1. Modified attack bonuses get so high that the d20 roll becomes irrelevant.

2. Appropriate ACs are hard to calculate because of the disparity in attack bonuses between the classes.

3. Saves vary so much at higher levels that some classes will automatically pass certain types of challenges while others will always fail, again because of the disparity between the good saves and bad saves of each class.

4. Some have reported (though this has never happened to me) that at higher levels, whoever wins initiative will win the encounter.
 
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Lord Xtheth

First Post
Its extremely hard to gauge what a party can and Can't do. When I was running an adventure that hit epic levels, I started using epic monsters as well as high level monsters.

Sometimes the Epic monster would go down in a matter of rounds. No ifs ands or butts about it. but then I'd throw a lowly equil level dragon at them, and they'd have to run for the hills!

Its sad when the party can down an elder worm red dragon on first round, yet can't beat a group of 4 Succubi to save their soul... and virginity.

It could boil down to flipping coins instead of running combats. Heads, you win, Tails, Full team wipe. That simple.
 

Storminator

First Post
I just played my last DM session of 3.5 It was the Savage Tides adventure path. In the 10th level adventure, the final villain (after a series of villains that killed 2 of 4 PCs) has a last gasp attack for when he drops to low hp. Except that the dervish PC won initiative and killed the villain with his 5 attacks in a single round.

PS
 

Hussar

Legend
The other issue at high levels is simply math overload. Between umpteen bonuses due to class, feats, race, magic items, spells, and various other sources, your numbers can change radically, sometimes round to round. This can make combat painfully slow - single rounds can take upwards of an hour. Never minding of course, actually trying to accurately track that many variables can be a task.
 

mattdm

First Post
The other issue at high levels is simply math overload. Between umpteen bonuses due to class, feats, race, magic items, spells, and various other sources, your numbers can change radically, sometimes round to round. This can make combat painfully slow - single rounds can take upwards of an hour. Never minding of course, actually trying to accurately track that many variables can be a task.

And let's not forget high-bab characters routinely making four or five attacks per round, each with different modifiers.
 

Dedekind

Explorer
I don't recall seeing a thread that mathematically deals with the breakdown.

Intuitively, though, saves mechanically become a problem with the standard progression.

First, "good" saves progress at a faster rate than "bad" saves. The absolute difference between good saves and bad saves does not stay the same through the levels. At first level, the probability of success for a good save is 10% (+2) higher than a bad save. At 20th level, the probability of success for a good save is 30% (+6) higher than a bad save. Hence, a saving throw targeting your worse save becomes a much greater problem at levels where "save or die" effects are much more frequent.

Second, good saves usually were modified by an ability score that was important for a class, will most likely be the one the player increased through the levels, and will most likely have the best buff from a magic item. So, the disparity between good scores and bad scores further increases the difference between good saves and bad saves.

So, the complaint was usually: "I either make my good saves with almost no chance of failure" or "I make my bad saves with almost no chance of success".

4e seeks to address this by providing a constant progression with a static class modifier. Though ability scores and feats may change the save (defense) through time, the difference between good and bad saves stays relatively stable.
 

neceros

Adventurer
I'm not a writer. I give you a fair disclaimer that what you see below has not been edited to much any great extent, and I have a chaotic mind. It's hard for me to put my thoughts down on paper.

Below you'll find some revisions to the core 3.5 system, which Pathfinder is base upon. These changes, so far as I notice, do not remove backwards compatibility. There may be instances where you will have to alter some aspects to fit it better with these new rules. For instance, monsters may need to be altered to fit. Then again, add a couple more hitpoints to each monster and call it good.

1. Save DCs
Any attack that opposes a saving throw is now calculated thus, including powers, spells and abilities: 10 + Half Caster level + Ability bonus.

2. Armor Class
Characters now gain half their Character Level as an unnamed bonus to their armor class.

3. Magic Items
  • Enhancement bonus to armor class may only be applied to armor, and not to rings, bracers, etc. Cloth (Robes, shirts) may be enchanted like normal armor, but must fulfill all other requirements per normal (must be masterwork, etc).
  • Miscellaneous magic items that provide a bonus to AC now provide a maximum +1 to AC (ie, ring of protection cannot exceed +1).
  • Implements may be enchanted to benefit casters in their spell save DCs and bonuses to hit when using spells. These foci must be enchanted using the same rules for enchanting weapons, with the same enhancement bonuses applying to the attacks and damages of the user's spells. Example: A wizard enchants a staff with a +2 enhancement. His or her staff now gives an additional +2 item bonus to all his or her spell save dcs. This staff costs 8,000 gold, as is normal for a +2 weapon. Enhancements may apply to only one of either save dcs or bonus to attack with spells, but not both.

4. Death Effects
All spells and abilities that have an instant death effect (save or die) are removed. In exchange, those abilities may stun or deal damage depending on a case by case circumstance.

Alternatively, someone suggested that death effects be replaced with rules similar to the Death Domain, from 3.5 PHB special ability.

5. Caster Levels (Manifester Levels)
Caster level, spells know, and spells per level for spell casting classes are given a multiclass bonus equal to half the value of all classes not already giving you caster levels for that particular class. This multiclass bonus may not exceed the class level providing the original caster level. This bonus works in the same way a "+1 arcane/divine caster level" would work from prestige classes. This bonus does not give you any other benefits that you might acquire from leveling in your normal caster level class, including class abilities, only spells, spells known and caster levels. Below are examples.

  • 4 Wizard / 10 Fighter: Wizard gains +4 to caster level from Fighter class. The Fighter actually gives a +5, but this bonus is limited because it may not exceed the Wizard class level of 4.
  • 5 Cleric / 4 Druid: Gain +2 bonus for both the druid and cleric caster levels from the opposite classes. Druid now has a CL or 6, and Cleric has a 7, on a 9th level character.

6. Saving Throws
All saving throws calculated as follows: half character level + ability bonus. Classes who previously had "good saves" (a +2 bonus at level 1) give a one time class bonus of +2 to that saving throw. You may gain the class bonus to saving throws only once at first level, thus multiclassing into a different class will not benefit your saving throws.

7. Iterative Attacks
When indicated to get another attack from your class table, you gain the attack as normal per your BAB score. However, instead of the -5 to attack, the character receives a -2 penalty per attack starting with the second attack. For example, a 16 level Fighter has a BAB of 16, as his table indicates he has four attacks: +16/+11/+6/+1. Instead of the normal -5 down the line, instead replace that with a -2, so it would be as follows: +16/+14/+12/+10. You still follow your table to determine how many attacks you get, but not the modifier to said rolls.
 

Hjorimir

Adventurer
I'm not a writer. I give you a fair disclaimer that what you see below has not been edited to much any great extent, and I have a chaotic mind. It's hard for me to put my thoughts down on paper.

Below you'll find some revisions to the core 3.5 system, which Pathfinder is base upon. These changes, so far as I notice, do not remove backwards compatibility. There may be instances where you will have to alter some aspects to fit it better with these new rules. For instance, monsters may need to be altered to fit. Then again, add a couple more hitpoints to each monster and call it good.

1. Save DCs
Any attack that opposes a saving throw is now calculated thus, including powers, spells and abilities: 10 + Half Caster level + Ability bonus.

2. Armor Class
Characters now gain half their Character Level as an unnamed bonus to their armor class.

3. Magic Items
  • Enhancement bonus to armor class may only be applied to armor, and not to rings, bracers, etc. Cloth (Robes, shirts) may be enchanted like normal armor, but must fulfill all other requirements per normal (must be masterwork, etc).
  • Miscellaneous magic items that provide a bonus to AC now provide a maximum +1 to AC (ie, ring of protection cannot exceed +1).
  • Implements may be enchanted to benefit casters in their spell save DCs and bonuses to hit when using spells. These foci must be enchanted using the same rules for enchanting weapons, with the same enhancement bonuses applying to the attacks and damages of the user's spells. Example: A wizard enchants a staff with a +2 enhancement. His or her staff now gives an additional +2 item bonus to all his or her spell save dcs. This staff costs 8,000 gold, as is normal for a +2 weapon. Enhancements may apply to only one of either save dcs or bonus to attack with spells, but not both.

4. Death Effects
All spells and abilities that have an instant death effect (save or die) are removed. In exchange, those abilities may stun or deal damage depending on a case by case circumstance.

Alternatively, someone suggested that death effects be replaced with rules similar to the Death Domain, from 3.5 PHB special ability.

5. Caster Levels (Manifester Levels)
Caster level, spells know, and spells per level for spell casting classes are given a multiclass bonus equal to half the value of all classes not already giving you caster levels for that particular class. This multiclass bonus may not exceed the class level providing the original caster level. This bonus works in the same way a "+1 arcane/divine caster level" would work from prestige classes. This bonus does not give you any other benefits that you might acquire from leveling in your normal caster level class, including class abilities, only spells, spells known and caster levels. Below are examples.

  • 4 Wizard / 10 Fighter: Wizard gains +4 to caster level from Fighter class. The Fighter actually gives a +5, but this bonus is limited because it may not exceed the Wizard class level of 4.
  • 5 Cleric / 4 Druid: Gain +2 bonus for both the druid and cleric caster levels from the opposite classes. Druid now has a CL or 6, and Cleric has a 7, on a 9th level character.

6. Saving Throws
All saving throws calculated as follows: half character level + ability bonus. Classes who previously had "good saves" (a +2 bonus at level 1) give a one time class bonus of +2 to that saving throw. You may gain the class bonus to saving throws only once at first level, thus multiclassing into a different class will not benefit your saving throws.

7. Iterative Attacks
When indicated to get another attack from your class table, you gain the attack as normal per your BAB score. However, instead of the -5 to attack, the character receives a -2 penalty per attack starting with the second attack. For example, a 16 level Fighter has a BAB of 16, as his table indicates he has four attacks: +16/+11/+6/+1. Instead of the normal -5 down the line, instead replace that with a -2, so it would be as follows: +16/+14/+12/+10. You still follow your table to determine how many attacks you get, but not the modifier to said rolls.

All steps in the right direction, but what I'd want is to see some serious efforts to lighten the DMs workload. I don't want to have to create NPCs and monsters with the same arduous process required for the PCs. I don't want to have to track durations for spells (i.e. powers). If Pazio could find a balanced way to combine the player side of 3.x and the DM side of 4e, I'd be there. 3.x is fine to run at low levels, but the big breakdown for me (as the guy who is always DMing) is the geometric rate at which prep time increases as the characters gain levels.
 

delericho

Legend
The other issue at high levels is simply math overload.

Yeah, this. More than the disparities between the classes, it was this factor that really turned high level 3.5e play into a chore.

This can make combat painfully slow - single rounds can take upwards of an hour.

Funnily enough, even at its worst, my group never saw this problem in high level D&D. I don't think we ever had a round take more than 5 minutes. That said, my group did stay away from dispel magic, polymorph, and other math-heavy effects.

Note that I'm not saying there isn't a problem here - enough people have reported it that I'm convinced that there is - I'm just saying my group were lucky enough not to see it.
 

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