3.5 breakdown at high levels?

juggler434

First Post
I've been running a high level 3.5 campaign from a book adventure, and after every session I felt like my brain was overloading. The last session I asked a friend to come help me GM, and he basicly kept track of monster hp and saves while the players were taking thier turns while I looked up monster ability and spells. It didn't really speed things up that much (although it was our first time trying this out), but it made things easier on me and I left the session happy instead of exhausted.
 

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frankthedm

First Post
I may miss a few points here, so hopefully someone will chime in and give me an assist.

1. Modified attack bonuses get so high that the d20 roll becomes irrelevant.

2. Appropriate ACs are hard to calculate because of the disparity in attack bonuses between the classes.

3. Saves vary so much at higher levels that some classes will automatically pass certain types of challenges while others will always fail, again because of the disparity between the good saves and bad saves of each class.

4. Some have reported (though this has never happened to me) that at higher levels, whoever wins initiative will win the encounter.
5. Character damage output will fluctuate wildly depending on what extra material is and what extra material is not allowed.

6. Advancing monsters takes way more time than it should. Playtesting & or comparing to other critters of the new CR then takes even more time.
 


meomwt

First Post
5. Character damage output will fluctuate wildly depending on what extra material is and what extra material is not allowed.

6. Advancing monsters takes way more time than it should. Playtesting & or comparing to other critters of the new CR then takes even more time.

For point 6, I use MonsterForge - the DM Tool equivalent of HeroForge for critters.
 

joethelawyer

Banned
Banned
I'm not a writer. I give you a fair disclaimer that what you see below has not been edited to much any great extent, and I have a chaotic mind. It's hard for me to put my thoughts down on paper.

Below you'll find some revisions to the core 3.5 system, which Pathfinder is base upon. These changes, so far as I notice, do not remove backwards compatibility. There may be instances where you will have to alter some aspects to fit it better with these new rules. For instance, monsters may need to be altered to fit. Then again, add a couple more hitpoints to each monster and call it good.

1. Save DCs
Any attack that opposes a saving throw is now calculated thus, including powers, spells and abilities: 10 + Half Caster level + Ability bonus.

2. Armor Class
Characters now gain half their Character Level as an unnamed bonus to their armor class.

3. Magic Items
  • Enhancement bonus to armor class may only be applied to armor, and not to rings, bracers, etc. Cloth (Robes, shirts) may be enchanted like normal armor, but must fulfill all other requirements per normal (must be masterwork, etc).
  • Miscellaneous magic items that provide a bonus to AC now provide a maximum +1 to AC (ie, ring of protection cannot exceed +1).
  • Implements may be enchanted to benefit casters in their spell save DCs and bonuses to hit when using spells. These foci must be enchanted using the same rules for enchanting weapons, with the same enhancement bonuses applying to the attacks and damages of the user's spells. Example: A wizard enchants a staff with a +2 enhancement. His or her staff now gives an additional +2 item bonus to all his or her spell save dcs. This staff costs 8,000 gold, as is normal for a +2 weapon. Enhancements may apply to only one of either save dcs or bonus to attack with spells, but not both.

4. Death Effects
All spells and abilities that have an instant death effect (save or die) are removed. In exchange, those abilities may stun or deal damage depending on a case by case circumstance.

Alternatively, someone suggested that death effects be replaced with rules similar to the Death Domain, from 3.5 PHB special ability.

5. Caster Levels (Manifester Levels)
Caster level, spells know, and spells per level for spell casting classes are given a multiclass bonus equal to half the value of all classes not already giving you caster levels for that particular class. This multiclass bonus may not exceed the class level providing the original caster level. This bonus works in the same way a "+1 arcane/divine caster level" would work from prestige classes. This bonus does not give you any other benefits that you might acquire from leveling in your normal caster level class, including class abilities, only spells, spells known and caster levels. Below are examples.

  • 4 Wizard / 10 Fighter: Wizard gains +4 to caster level from Fighter class. The Fighter actually gives a +5, but this bonus is limited because it may not exceed the Wizard class level of 4.
  • 5 Cleric / 4 Druid: Gain +2 bonus for both the druid and cleric caster levels from the opposite classes. Druid now has a CL or 6, and Cleric has a 7, on a 9th level character.

6. Saving Throws
All saving throws calculated as follows: half character level + ability bonus. Classes who previously had "good saves" (a +2 bonus at level 1) give a one time class bonus of +2 to that saving throw. You may gain the class bonus to saving throws only once at first level, thus multiclassing into a different class will not benefit your saving throws.

7. Iterative Attacks
When indicated to get another attack from your class table, you gain the attack as normal per your BAB score. However, instead of the -5 to attack, the character receives a -2 penalty per attack starting with the second attack. For example, a 16 level Fighter has a BAB of 16, as his table indicates he has four attacks: +16/+11/+6/+1. Instead of the normal -5 down the line, instead replace that with a -2, so it would be as follows: +16/+14/+12/+10. You still follow your table to determine how many attacks you get, but not the modifier to said rolls.


are you saying that these rules are in the pathfinder beta? or that these are your house rules?
 

neceros

Adventurer
Suggestions to balance D&D 3.5. Doubt they will go into Pathfinder, even if they are backwards compatible. :)

In short: house rules.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
High end monsters have a bucket full of spell-like abilities that you have to look up and reference.

Spell Resistance + High Saves.

Scry Buff Teleport, and other high end magic utterly circumventing things.

Finally, here's a challenge:
Make a group of enemies to challenge a 17th level party.
1) One must have PrC.
2) One must be a monster with class levels.
3) One must have an animal companion (so bring those stats too).
4) One must have a template.
5) One must be a spellcaster.

If you're not so utterly disgusted by the time you reach #4, congratulations, you're a masochist.
 

Fenes

First Post
I use an NPC generator when I need high level NPCs on the fly. Or I just wing it, using some baselines appropriate for level. I have almost never encountered an NPC meant for fighting the PCs that actually survived long enough to exhaust his spells or used all the class abilities or skills he had, so there's a lot of leeway.

I am thinking of just making some "feat" and "maneuver" packs, and build NPCs from that.
 

neceros

Adventurer
High end monsters have a bucket full of spell-like abilities that you have to look up and reference.

Spell Resistance + High Saves.

Scry Buff Teleport, and other high end magic utterly circumventing things.

...

If you're not so utterly disgusted by the time you reach #4, congratulations, you're a masochist.

To be fair, you only need to do this if you are a completionist. Like mentioned, I don't think it's necessary to follow every single rule like PCs do. You're the DM.
 

c47

First Post
Scry-Buff-Teleport is something you have to deal with a lot lower than "high" level. By about 12th this would become standard if within the scope of the quite limited spells. Likewise with any plan-X time infiltrations (Plan-X = characters in an extra-dimensional space while the scout gets you to where you're needed) are also probably being used. This is all normal for mid-to-high level DnD from previous editions. I think what the originator was getting at was what happens are epic levels or close to epic levels and why. Most of the topics have been covered.

Fighters can hit everything, if they cannot hit it, no one can hit it.
Arcane spells get though any spell resistances and with the no-save spells available can made any non-epic monsters redundant.
Clerics can get back party members from near death to full health in a matter of rounds, in combat.
Rogues cannot be seen by pretty much anyone else and can scout out anywhere without being detected.

So to counter these effects there are epic monsters and epic encounters. Our group has been playing at this level for a few months now (about the 19th - 22nd levels) and are finding that epic monsters are leaps and bounds tougher than normal ones. Perhaps this has to be so considering my first points above. There is almost an groan around the table when we realize it is an epic monster because basically epic means: immune to spells, high enough AC that only a fully buffed fighter can hit it on his first strike, regen. or fast healing or both so if we don't kill it this time, the next time we encounter it it is back on full (no guerrilla tactics), immune to level drain, mind effects, probably flies (The Tarrasques only real weakness), moves faster than all bar the monk, several hundred if not thousand hit points and normally has some special power that is undefendable:- psychic wisdom drain, sonic fangs, mind extraction via phasing.

Basically there is a massive leap from 20th to 21st monsters. Obviously we've only played the one campaign at this level so perhaps it is the adventure but we all (the players) felt that when we were 20th a tough monsters has ac 30 - 40. Suddenly at 21st they have 60+ and all other powers equally increased.

I know this is still not answering the originators post but I thought I'd add my two pence.

We've looked at epic spells and house ruled them out. They are either stupidly expensive or you have to convolute them so much it is silly. They do not fit into the game very well either. Epic feats are not "that" fantastic either. Very few are genuinely epic. Most could be in the base game from the start.

One of our group stated that its like a superheroes game. I'm not so sure. Its been about 20 years since I last played a superheroes game (Champions/Gurps:Wildcards) so perhaps things have changed but I remember starting out quite wimpy compared to my DnD high level guys.

We've had to make a few house rules regarding some spells and items: Astral Projection, Wish/Miracle, Rods of metamagic etc.

Some comments on high level combat:-

the actual rounds do take a little longer each time you go up as everyone has more they can do. Particularly the wizards and clerics. If anything the longest delays is not the combat but more the preparation time for the characters that prepare their spells. I don't mind this delay as I think it make the players really think about their spells. Its taken about three levels of 18th+ play but we're starting to get used to chucking the 9ths and 10ths around and see what works and what doesn't.

What I will say is that regardless of how tough the monsters are, we are really enjoying the game.

You can see for yourselves if you are happy to put up with our stories here:
http://shokaster.com/roundrobin/viewforum.php?f=23
 

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