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Class Design: One Primary Attack Stat
- Thread starter Nahat Anoj
- Start date
Oh that's true. I don't really care enough to change anything though. I just think attributes aren't really needed from a game design perspective.
The problem is the main attack for any character needs to scale up as you level, so neglecting the main stat is such a bad idea that almost no one does it. Once something becomes necessary it's no longer a meaningful choice, therefore it should be eliminated. Same thing with (opposed) skills... you need to keep boosting the relevant attribute to "keep up".
The above, along with feat dependencies, certain powers and other attribute related things, make the game more complicated. Especially at character creation, attributes are a big trap for any newbie and a big time sink for those who read every possible option all the way up to level 30 just so they know which attributes they need to get what they want.
Is it broken? No, not really. Could they have designed the game to be simpler while still keeping the flavor? Yeah.
themilkman
First Post
I'm pretty hopeful about monks in 4e. The Devs seem to have been making an effort to keep MADness to a minimum lately. Like with the intelligent blademaster feat, for swordmages, or that druid class feature that lets them use constitution to determine their AC.
Who knows? Maybe the paladin will get some love too.
thecasualoblivion
First Post
Things seem pretty simple on the surface to convert the two attack stat classes to one by simple changes. Here is how I would do it:
Melee Cleric--Wis primary attack stat, and change the bonus modifer(for additional effects) for powers that attack with Str from Wisdom to Strength, except where its already Strength(like Righteous Brand).
Laser Cleric--No changes
Str Paladin--Change powers from Str attack with Wis modifier to Cha attack with Str modifier.
Cha Paladin--No changes
TWF Ranger--This I would do a bit differently. I'd change melee Ranger powers from Str primary and Wis secondary to Str primary and Dex secondary, while keeping Ranged powers the same.
Archer Ranger--As a class feature, Archer Rangers would get the ability to use Dex as their attack stat for Ranger melee powers while using Light Blades and still use Dex as the secondary stat for these powers. No changes to ranged powers.
Beastmaster Ranger--Remains Str primary and Wis secondary, but gains the ability to use Str as an attack stat for Ranger ranged attack powers while using Heavy Thrown weapons and proficiency in Chain armor.
Warlocks--I would make Cha the universal attack stat, and have Starlocks and Infernallocks use Con as their secondary stat instead of Int. I would also give all Warlocks proficiency in Chain armor.
Melee Cleric--Wis primary attack stat, and change the bonus modifer(for additional effects) for powers that attack with Str from Wisdom to Strength, except where its already Strength(like Righteous Brand).
Laser Cleric--No changes
Str Paladin--Change powers from Str attack with Wis modifier to Cha attack with Str modifier.
Cha Paladin--No changes
TWF Ranger--This I would do a bit differently. I'd change melee Ranger powers from Str primary and Wis secondary to Str primary and Dex secondary, while keeping Ranged powers the same.
Archer Ranger--As a class feature, Archer Rangers would get the ability to use Dex as their attack stat for Ranger melee powers while using Light Blades and still use Dex as the secondary stat for these powers. No changes to ranged powers.
Beastmaster Ranger--Remains Str primary and Wis secondary, but gains the ability to use Str as an attack stat for Ranger ranged attack powers while using Heavy Thrown weapons and proficiency in Chain armor.
Warlocks--I would make Cha the universal attack stat, and have Starlocks and Infernallocks use Con as their secondary stat instead of Int. I would also give all Warlocks proficiency in Chain armor.
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Nahat Anoj
First Post
In the case of the paladin, they generally were pretty easy. The difficulties I ran into mostly involved trying to find ways to work Str into the power after making them all Cha-primary. Some former Str powers, such as Resounding Smite, don't have an obvious way to incorporate Str (at least for me).
thecasualoblivion
First Post
I wouldn't think every power that is currently Str needs to keep using Str after conversion.
Nahat Anoj
First Post
You're correct, of course.
And that is the philosophy I took with paladin dailies (I think all of them are pure Cha-base, no Wis or Str secondary effects). There are just many more powers that have Wis secondary than Str in my conversion. Although that may be looked on as a feature, as it gives Cha/Wis pallies a bit more versatility, which is one of the stated goals for Charismadins in the PHB IIRC.
evilbob
Adventurer
I am another person who believes that dual-stat classes (as I call them) are inherently weaker than their single-stat counterparts. Any class that depends on two different attack stats means that you either have fewer options overall, or your stats will be more spread out and therefore your character will be weaker - compared to single-stat classes who can focus their efforts into one stat. Since stat boosts are so few and far between now, starting with a 14 in your primary attack stat puts you at a significant disadvantage to someone who starts with an 18.
I thought it was interesting that the PHB had half-and-half dual-stat and single-stat classes; I thought this must be by design. But I am quite a bit surprised that this post suggests (I haven't kept up with any spoilers lately) that ALL the PHB2 classes will be single-stat classes. This seems to suggest that more recent research found what I said above to be true and the writers are trying to shy away from dual-stat classes from now on. Although honestly this is even more puzzling since the factors I pointed out above are really quite obvious. Does this mean there will be a re-write for the 4 classes above?
Is this not what everyone else is experiencing or does the lack of options and/or ability spread not feel like it matters as much?
MyISPHatesENWorld
First Post
The feats necessary for a cleric to be good at melee require a STR primary and supplemental stats in DEX and/or CON and/or WIS. Making the cleric use his WIS as his attack stat in melee removes a ton of build options.
The posted single-stat cleric is just a cleric that sucks in melee.
Making the cleric suck in melee may be the actual intent, as it is hard to get good intentions from this:
"There's already a Str-based mashing faces Leader, the Warlord, the melee Cleric should look different or should not exist." - Scrlik
The posted single-stat cleric is just a cleric that sucks in melee.
Making the cleric suck in melee may be the actual intent, as it is hard to get good intentions from this:
"There's already a Str-based mashing faces Leader, the Warlord, the melee Cleric should look different or should not exist." - Scrlik
I like the dual-stat classes a lot, because they clearly have different feel, look, and behavior; a Str Cleric and a Wis cleric fight much different compared to the difference between Tactical and Inspired Warlord.
Although I've noticed that the various Dual-Stat classes have very weak secondary effects. The paladin's wisdom doesn't effect many powers. The Cleric's Cha doesn't effect many powers. The Warlock's Int and the Ranger's Wisdom does, however.
The Warlock I think is a nice divide, as you have one path that is Cha focused, one Con focused, and one that bounces between Cha and Con. This allows for some interesting combinations. (Although I dislike that all the Con-based powers are either Cold or Fire based, but that's another discussion).
The Ranger has an interesting dicotomy; while some powers are clearly melee focused and others clearly archery focused, others easily facilitate both with a two-attack mechanic. (Although I find the Ranger one of the most boring and straight forward classes, but that's another discussion all together).
Let's not talk about the Warlord, because that class frustrates me a lot.
Two of the other Mono-stat classes really don't count: The fighter has so little that key off a secondary stat. They have a few powers, and that's generally it. The Wizard has next to no difference; a few things like feats key off Wisdom, a few at wills. But none key off Dex (except the implement foci).
I also agree about the multi-classing bit. For instance, a half-elf warlock. There aren't any Cha or Con based at wills in any of the other classes until the bard comes out (Paladin aside; the paladin's cha based at-wills are not only melee focused, but key off paladin powers like marking et al, so not useful for the warlock).
Although I've noticed that the various Dual-Stat classes have very weak secondary effects. The paladin's wisdom doesn't effect many powers. The Cleric's Cha doesn't effect many powers. The Warlock's Int and the Ranger's Wisdom does, however.
The Warlock I think is a nice divide, as you have one path that is Cha focused, one Con focused, and one that bounces between Cha and Con. This allows for some interesting combinations. (Although I dislike that all the Con-based powers are either Cold or Fire based, but that's another discussion).
The Ranger has an interesting dicotomy; while some powers are clearly melee focused and others clearly archery focused, others easily facilitate both with a two-attack mechanic. (Although I find the Ranger one of the most boring and straight forward classes, but that's another discussion all together).
Let's not talk about the Warlord, because that class frustrates me a lot.
Two of the other Mono-stat classes really don't count: The fighter has so little that key off a secondary stat. They have a few powers, and that's generally it. The Wizard has next to no difference; a few things like feats key off Wisdom, a few at wills. But none key off Dex (except the implement foci).
I agree with this, but then, racial stat bonuses causing folks to pick that race to play that class is always going to be there. (I.e. why you'll have more Dwarf and Elf laser clerics/druids, for no other reason than their stats complement those classes). And yet at the same time, there are some stat combos that we just do not see, and may never see (+2 Con/Int, for instance).
I also agree about the multi-classing bit. For instance, a half-elf warlock. There aren't any Cha or Con based at wills in any of the other classes until the bard comes out (Paladin aside; the paladin's cha based at-wills are not only melee focused, but key off paladin powers like marking et al, so not useful for the warlock).
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