4e One-trick ponies: Why is it the DM's fault about combat grind?

[Jack99]

To go a little more with the math. (note this is not scientific)
Assume that there are two fighters, a cleric, a rogue, and a wizard. If 5 party members over make an attack (every round) for 5 rounds, that is 25 attacks (with a 50% hit chance), they hit 12.5 times and do average damage.

Level 1-
Fighter (2 handed) 1d10+4 9.5
Fighter (sword and shield) 1d8+4 8.5
Cleric 1d8+4 8.5
Rogue 1d6+4 7.5 (+7 for sneak attack)
Wizard 2d4+4 9

9.5 + 8.5 +8.5 + 7.5(+7 sneak attack) + 9 +10(average damage for group) +10(average damage for group) = 70 damage

5 level 1 goblins have 29*5=145

This combat will easily take at least 10 rounds and likely more considering maneuvering and hindering conditions. If each player takes an average of 1 minute and the DM takes an average of 3 minutes, one cycle around the table would take 8 minutes. 10 rounds times 8 is 80 minutes, that is an hour and 20 minutes for 5 goblins. You could probably shave time off of this but it is just an estimate. And these are average times, yes you can have a 30 second round but you could also easily have a 1.5 minute round too.

I kept looking at what you wrote, and it just didn't make any sense. Assumptions aside (and you make quite a few), there was definitely something wrong about it.

By your numbers, a party of 5 such as described in your post will do 50 damage per round. Assuming a 50% hitrate, that would mean that said group would have an average of 25 damage per round. That means it would take them 6 rounds, and not 10 to kill the poor goblins. All things given, in a real game of 4e, 4-5 rounds is probably closer.

What is the problem with the fact that it takes 4-5 rounds to kill a group of monsters of the same level and size as the players?

 

[Jack99]

Attack: +7 (+4 ability, +3 proficiency, +1 fighter) 1d12+4 damage

cough +8 cough

/hugs

 

[C_M2008]

cough +8 cough

/hugs

Plus no first level monster I can think of has AC 19 (which would be a 50% miss chance) more like 14-18.

 

[Sadrik]

I kept looking at what you wrote, and it just didn't make any sense. Assumptions aside (and you make quite a few), there was definitely something wrong about it.

By your numbers, a party of 5 such as described in your post will do 50 damage per round. Assuming a 50% hitrate, that would mean that said group would have an average of 25 damage per round. That means it would take them 6 rounds, and not 10 to kill the poor goblins. All things given, in a real game of 4e, 4-5 rounds is probably closer.

What is the problem with the fact that it takes 4-5 rounds to kill a group of monsters of the same level and size as the players?

Fighter (2 handed) 1d10+4 (+2 for reaping) 11.5
Fighter (sword and shield) 1d8+4 (+2 for cleave) 10.5
Cleric 1d6+4 (sacred flame) 7.5
Rogue 1d6+4 (+2 for sly flourish) 9.5 (+7 for sneak attack)
Wizard 2d4+4 (magic missile) 9

Each round if they hit with everything (including a sneak attack): 55
But they have an approximate 50% hit rate turning it into: 27.5

Without sneak attack these drop to: 48/24

If you count a sneak attack every other round that averages the damage to 27.5+24=51.5/2=25.75 (we'll call it 26 for simplicity)

And again 5 level 1 goblin skirmishers have 29*5= 145

145/26= minimum 6 rounds.

6 rounds * 8 Minutes = 48 Minutes minimum to kill 5 goblins

Assumptions:
All PCs survive and all monster die
50% hit rate
Sneak attack every other round
No overkill (2 HP left and hit for 10 damage)
No maneuvering without an attack
No status effects

The last three will definitely increase rounds.

If you level the PCs up to level 2 and they go against 5 Kobold dragonshields they have 36*5=180 and damage does not go up. It seems monster HPs go up faster than PC damage.

YMMV

 

[FireLance]

50% hit rate

I think this is the assumption that is most in need of review.

Assuming 18 Str, a fighter will have an attack bonus of +8 (+4 Str, +3 Prof, +1 Weapon Talent) which means he will hit a goblin warrior (AC 17) 60% of the time.

Assming 18 Dex, a rogue with a dagger will have an attack bonus of +8 (+4 Dex, +3 Prof, +1 Weapon Talent) which means he will also hit a goblin warrior 60% of the time, or 70% of the time with piercing strike (which targets the goblin warrior's Reflex of 15).

As for the cleric and the wizard, why aren't they using sacred flame (which grants a +2 bonus to an ally's next attack roll) and scorching burst (which can damage multiple targets) respectively?

 

[Sadrik]

I think this is the assumption that is most in need of review.

Fair enough, break out the math then and see if it will lower the average minimum number of rounds.

 

[Nightson]

I decided to model this using the default characters from the character builder. I changed the Dwarf battle cleric to a Devoted Cleric and switched out the fighter's weapon to have the two different fighters.

Assumptions:
All PCs survive and all monster die
Sneak attack half the time
No overkill (2 HP left and hit for 10 damage)
No maneuvering without an attack
No status effects
No AoE
No Flanking
Bonus from Lance of Faith hits not modeled
Critical hits are modeled
Cleave always has a secondary target when it hits.

Goblin Warrior: AC-17, Ref-15, Collective HP:145

Fighter +8 vs. AC(17) (Greatsword + Reaping) 1d10+6 (11.5) (5 on miss)
Fighter +9 vs. AC(17) (Longsword + Cleave) 1d8+6 (10.5) (5 extra on hit)
Cleric +5 vs. Ref(15) (Lance of Faith) 1d8+5 (9.5)
Rogue +9 vs. Ref(15) (Piercing Strike) 1d4+6 (8.5) + Sneak Attack (7)
Wizard +5 vs. Ref(15) (Magic Missile) 2d4+5 (10)

Hitting Things:
Fighter (G) hits on 9+: 11.5(.50)+16(.05)+5(.45) = 8.8
Fighter (L) hits on 8+: 10.5(.55)+14(.05)+5(.60) = 9.475
Cleric hits on 10+: 9.5(.45)+13(.05) = 4.925
Wizard hits on 10+: 10(.45)+13(.05) = 5.15
Rogue hits on 6+: (8.5[.65]+10[.05])+([7(.65)+12(.05)]*.50) = 8.6

Total 36.95 (Round to 37)

37 average damage a round blows through 145 hp in 3.9 rounds.

 

[FireLance]

Fair enough, break out the math then and see if it will lower the average minimum number of rounds.

Average damage for the two-handed fighter (reaping strike):
60% 1d10+4 (9.5), 40% 4 = 7.3

Average damage for the one-handed fighter (cleave):
[Assumptions: has a cleave target 50% of the time and has attack bonus from cleric 50% of the time]
1/4 * 60% 1d8+4 (8.5) + 1/4 * 70% 1d8+4 (8.5) + 1/4 * 60% 1d8+4+4 (12.5) + 1/4 + 70% 1d8+4+4 (12.5) = 6.825

Average damage for the rogue (piercing strike):
[Assumptions: has combat advantage 50% of the time]
1/2 * 80% 1d4+2d6+4 (13.5) + 1/2 * 70% 1d4+4 (6.5) = 7.675

Average damage for the cleric (lance of faith):
50% 1d8+4 (8.5) = 4.25

Average damage for the wizard (scorching burst or magic missile):
[Assumptions: 50% of the time, can use scorching burst to affect 2 goblins, otherwise uses magic missile]
1/2 * 50% 1d6+4 * 2 (7.5 * 2) + 1/2 50% 2d4+4 (9) = 6

Average damage output for one round of combat: 32.05

Total hit points of 5 goblin warriors: 145

Average time taken to defeat five goblin warriors: 4.52 rounds

This is about a round less than the earlier estimate.

If the rogue maneuvers so that he can get combat advantage every round, his average damage per round increases by 3.125 to 10.8.

Assuming this also allows him to grant the one-handed weapon fighter combat advantage 50% of the time, this also increases his average damage per round by 0.525 to 7.35.

This increases the party's average damage output per round to 35.7, which will allow them to defeat the five goblin warriors in an average of about 4.06 rounds.

The above analysis also does not take into account the effect of feats such as Backstabber, Weapon Focus, and proficiency with a superior weapon which would add to the party's damage, and racial abilities and encounter powers, which the party really has no reason to avoid using.

 

[Nightson]

Also, lets see what happens if we let the fighter and the rogue flank.

Fighter (L) hits on 6+: 10.5(.65)+14(.05)+5(.70) = 11.025
Rogue hits on 4+: (8.5[.75]+10[.05])+([7[.75]+12[.05]) = 12.725

That's a 5.674 DPR increase. Which lowers average combat time to 3.4 rounds from 3.9 rounds.

The best candidate for receiving the bonus from Lance of Faith hits in this scenario is a tie between the Fighter(L) and the Rogue, each of whom give an extra 1.55 DPR from it.

 

[Ahglock]

I'll avoid comments on the rest of your post - but yes, smart monsters absolutely should do something like checking morale, either by DM fiat, intimidate checks, or a houseruled morale system.

The OP noted that they didn't want to do this. As a result, I think a lot of posters are avoiding this suggestion.

-O

yes and no. A lot of dungeons are basically the intelligent monsters home. A lot of people fight to the death when defending there home. if they make an intimidate check, well the morale issue is kind of forced. But I don't have many people cut and run when defending there home. They cut and run sometimes, but that usually just means the next encounter is going to grind even more as the people who ran team up with there neighbors to kill the intruders.