Wall of Force question

[ElectricDragon]

Without Wingover or Hover, the dragon could only turn 45 degrees after 5 ft. of movement (his only allowed turn that round at poor maneuverability), then slam into the fixed wall. I would allow him to lessen the crash damage by half with this turn. Spot, Listen, Blindsense, even Blindsight won't help, not enough space to make them useful. SR is also useless against this spell, but I would allow a Ref save against the DC of the spell to turn and reduce crash damage by half (or probably just give that to him, his Intelligence should be high enough to want to avoid crashing headlong into a wall).

Under Hover, there is an entry called: Normal, wherein it says: Without this feat, a creature must keep moving while flying unless it has perfect maneuverability.

Ciao,
Dave

 

[Jack Simth]

Under Hover, there is an entry called: Normal, wherein it says: Without this feat, a creature must keep moving while flying unless it has perfect maneuverability.

Ciao,
Dave

Yeah, the Normal line of Hover isn't quite the primary for maneuvering while flying. For that, you want to go Here, where it's quite clear that someone with merely Good maneuverability can also hover.

 

[Nail]

#1) Wall of Force can't be used to make a cube; that's clear enough. So no "trapping" the dragon.

#2) The Wall of Force doesn't need to be supported. It's an evocation spell, and the wall "cannot move", meaning it stays were put - even up in the air.

#3) The dragon can notice invisible objects without a check: that's what blind sense is for. So no need for a Spot check.

#4) The dragon (might-hover feat?) need to move a minimum distance to stay in the air, and if the wall is right in front of him, he (probably-impr. flight feat?) can't turn, and so the dragon falls. Much depends on what Red Dragon was used, and how the dragon was stated. I know that often there are mistakes in published monster stat blocks, and dragons are some of the toughest monsters in 3.5e to stat up.

 

[Thatwackyned]

#3) The dragon can notice invisible objects without a check: that's what blind sense is for. So no need for a Spot check

Blindsense requires the user to still use a sense, and no one has stated what sense the Dragon is using to detect the wall.
So again,

what sense are you using to detect an invisible wall? Sight, no. Smell, no. Hearing, no. Taste, maybe. Touch, yes (by crashing into it).

Detect Invisiblity will allow you to detect invisible objects.

 

[Jhaelen]

Blindsense requires the user to still use a sense, and no one has stated what sense the Dragon is using to detect the wall.

Well, it could basically be any sense and will probably be the sum of clues gained by applying all senses. Here's some examples:

It could be sight: the dragon beats its wings and causes dust to stir, making a faint outline visible.

It could be sound: the dragon notices that the acustic properties of the space have changed, e.g. echoes are less (or more) pronounced.

It could be smell: closing off part of the area might change or stop an air current carrying a particular fragrance.

Etc.

Have you ever asked a blind person how they manage to avoid obstacles?
You don't need to be a bat to detect a wall by sound.

 

[ElectricDragon]

someone with merely Good maneuverability can also hover.

What core dragon has Good maneuverability? For dragons, it takes a feat to hover.

Blindsense has nothing to do with it. There is no space for the dragon to do anything but hover. It needs to move 5 feet before it can turn 45 degrees and that is the only turn it can make in one round with a maneuverability of poor. Wingover lets it turn 180 degrees but only with 10 feet of space. The wall was immediately in front of the dragon. No space to turn, no space to wingover, no space to do anything. Even if it sees or senses the wall, it can do nothing about it, 5 feet of space when you are moving 75 feet every 6 seconds or 12.5 feet per second is not enough space for reaction time.

Frank: if a dragon is running and the mage on his turn fireballs him; does the mage have to ready an action to fireball the dragon? Running is not a reason for readying an action.

Ciao,
Dave

 

[dingle]

I agree with Thatwackyned.
I don't think the dragon could use Blindsence to see the wall of force. The wall will not be making any noise, or smell for the dragon to detect. I think I would have the dragon hit the wall of Force unless it had a detect magic running. I'ts also quite funny.

 

[Jack Simth]

What core dragon has Good maneuverability? For dragons, it takes a feat to hover.

The one that cast Fly prior to taking flight?

Blindsense has nothing to do with it. There is no space for the dragon to do anything but hover. It needs to move 5 feet before it can turn 45 degrees and that is the only turn it can make in one round with a maneuverability of poor. Wingover lets it turn 180 degrees but only with 10 feet of space.

Correction: Wingover "Consumes ten feet of flying movement" - it does not require ten feet of space.

The wall was immediately in front of the dragon. No space to turn, no space to wingover, no space to do anything. Even if it sees or senses the wall, it can do nothing about it, 5 feet of space when you are moving 75 feet every 6 seconds or 12.5 feet per second is not enough space for reaction time.

That depends on your reaction time, now doesn't it? 5 feet of space at a rate of 12.5 feet per second works out to 0.4 seconds warning. There are humans who can react in that window. Why not a dragon?

 

[Jhaelen]

The wall will not be making any noise, or smell for the dragon to detect.

It doesn't have to.

It will reflect sounds made by the dragon, the party, and anything else near it that DOES make any noise, thus it's perfectly detectable using hearing.

 

[Kask]

Detect Invisiblity will allow you to detect invisible objects.

That would help except, a wall of force isn't an object, no more than X-rays are an object. Therefore, dragon doesn't know it's there until he smacks into it. Roll damage as per rules and dragon falls...