Storm Raven
First Post
It is highly unlikely, since copyrights don't work that way. You may know of cases where a company lost their trademark after failing to protect it.
Trademarks are not copyrights, and don't work the same way.
WotC puts a stop to online sales of PDFs
It is highly unlikely, since copyrights don't work that way. You may know of cases where a company lost their trademark after failing to protect it.
Trademarks are not copyrights, and don't work the same way.
thecasualoblivion
First Post
I think people might be missing the big picture here. What we are lacking here is numbers. How many PDFs are purchased(and in that vein, how much money WotC makes off of them) compared to how many are pirated illegally. If pirated copies are significantly more common than legitimately purchased ones, I don't see where WotC had any real choice here. The issue is competition. They essentially are in competition with free pirated copies of themselves. If the ratio is really bad, they are in an untenable position.
Here's a good way to detect a lie. WotC says PH2 is being pirated so we are stopping the sale of ALL PDFs. Okay, how does ceasing the sale of a D&D 1st Ed DMG PDF have anything to do with 4.0 PHB2 pirating? Answer, nothing, ergo a lie.
So, it's not that people don't believe anything WotC says, it's that people with an IQ can see when they are blatantly fibbing...
No. Pulling PDFs that are already all over the net does NOTHING to stop the piracy of those items. So, that is a lie. It ONLY keeps legit customers from purchasing legacy product. Now, that is a strat if you think an old product line is damaging an existing one. That is what the pulling of legacy product is ALL about.
vsper
First Post
I seem to be a bit late in learning this. I got word when LPJ they were having a sale.
I already own everything from Wizards (and TSR) from 1st through 3.5 in dead tree form. I was starting to collect the pdf from RPGnow. I have only a couple hundred dollars in Wizards products, which I now find I can no longer access. I am as many folks a bit mad about what I feel is being robbed. I hadn't followed WOTC to 4th but it seems with this action they want none of my money.
The cynical side of me wonders if they are still selling far more 3.5 than they would like and this is their attempt to kill it off.
I have decided to take the $30 a month I would have spent on WOTC products and will be investing in 3rd Party stuff, which I already spend $30 a month on. I wish all 3rd party publishers luck and as long as you keep producing I will keep buying
Vsper
I already own everything from Wizards (and TSR) from 1st through 3.5 in dead tree form. I was starting to collect the pdf from RPGnow. I have only a couple hundred dollars in Wizards products, which I now find I can no longer access. I am as many folks a bit mad about what I feel is being robbed. I hadn't followed WOTC to 4th but it seems with this action they want none of my money.
The cynical side of me wonders if they are still selling far more 3.5 than they would like and this is their attempt to kill it off.
I have decided to take the $30 a month I would have spent on WOTC products and will be investing in 3rd Party stuff, which I already spend $30 a month on. I wish all 3rd party publishers luck and as long as you keep producing I will keep buying
Vsper
thecasualoblivion
First Post
Actually it does, in a sense. As long as Wizards is providing PDFs they are participating in the PDF industry as a whole, piracy and all. If they are being buried under a tide of piracy, the logical course of action is to remove themselves from the PDF industry altogether.
How many people actually purchase PDFs of legacy products(as opposed to downloading free pirated copies)? I expect the number to be very low, and may not even justify the amount of work required to make them available. Making PDFs available takes some amount of work and bandwith, and both of those things cost money. There are many torrents available that are huge libraries of pirated PDFs of legacy material, that can be downloaded after one simple search and one click. How is WotC supposed to compete with that?
The question is not about piracy and WotC as a whole, but does piracy make the WotC PDF initiative not worth the bother/expense? Bowing out of the PDF marked does not stop piracy, but piracy is rampant with or without WotCs participation.
In a sense it helps solve the energy crisis. In reality it does nothing to stop those PDFs from being pirated...
Obryn
Hero
I put this theory in the tinfoil hat category, and I scratch my head whenever I see it. I think a lot of people would like it to be true, but this move isn't evidence for it.
There would be no reason whatsoever to take down both the 4e and older edition materials, if they simply wanted to stop selling the older editions.
Yes, there would have been an uproar about removing the older editions from sale. I can't imagine the uproar would have been larger, though, if they had only removed the older editions and left the 4e materials for sale. You can come up with scenarios where it somehow makes sense if you add on about three or four assumptions, but occam's razor doesn't give me any reason to doubt Wizards' official statements here.
-O
There is some work at the start of the process of presenting pdfs for sale (preparing a master, distributing to interested retailers), but once the pdfs are available, there is no work, no cost, and no effort other than that of collecting monies paid by the retailer and performing appropriate due diligence.
I could easily understand announcing no future product would use the pdf format due to piracy concerns. Future books would have to be pirated the "old-fashioned" way.
Pulling down already available pdfs accomplishes nothing with regard to pirated product (since piracy in this sense acts like counterfeiting -- pulling the original has no effect on pirated stock), costs money (legal contacts, contract reviews, official notice, PR statements, management meetings, potential contract renegotiation), reduces future earnings (people really did buy them), and because of the communication tactics created great angst and annoyance among the hooby base. Sort of a lose-lose-lose-lose proposition.
funkytable
First Post
A new gamers opinion
I think my opinion on this subject is noteworthy for one huge reason:
I am a new Tabletop Gamer. So new, I've only played for 3 months total.
My brother and I bought a game called Descent Journeys in the Dark for Christmas because I remembered how much I enjoyed HeroQuest as a kid (The only thing I had ever played that comes close to DND prior to Descent). Once I went back to home far away from my brother, I decided I wanted to continue that style of gameplay, so I turned online.
As I researched for games that could be played online that were similar to Descent, the most famous of all RPG's of course caught my eye. I researched DND and found it to not only be like Descent, but more fun because Character personality is involved. I enjoy creative writing, so this looked even more appealing.
But I still needed to play online, I couldn't do a DND group that meets once a week. Plus that sounded more like Improv theater than my interest in Creative Writing. So then I found a Play by Post site that hosted DND games. I was hooked.
Then I needed to decide how to purchase the materials for DND. My wife gets extremely annoyed whenever I purchase anything not on the basis of money, but on the basis of space. She doesn't like a lot of books on the bookshelf, and she certainly would hate it if I started buying miniatures (She bitterly tolerated Descent). So I researched if there were some sort of Digital Distribution for DND materials. There was the DNDinsider, but I wary of monthly subscriptions. That lead me to RPGnow and their PDF store, and I was thrilled. I started purchasing one book a month.
And yes, I went into my local stores, both chains and a game shop, and flipped through the books available to me before I bought them online. I did this twice. I didn't read the entire things like retailers get upset about with comics. I just flipped through them.
I logged in today to purchase a copy of the Monster Manual (The PHB's were more important to me out of the gate) and I learned the terrible news that they no longer sell WotC products.
So here's my response. I will NEVER purchase any DND products that are not Digital. I will NEVER pay a monthly subscription for a service that I do not get to keep once the monthly subscription is over. So that pretty much leaves PDF's as the only option for me to enjoy RPG gaming. I find it confusing that right after WotC wins a new customer, they point me to the exit. They were going to get some of my money today, but now they won't.
Again, let me stress the number 1 reason for this. My wife will not let me purchase the hard copies of WotC products. Both she and I get frustrated with too much clutter, and we don't need a new hobby taking up space in our house. However, space on a hard drive is totally fine.
So yes it sucks that some Retail stores may be getting hit bad by Amazon or PDF sales. But unfortunately, that's the way the business world turns. I doubt Obama will promote a stimulus bill to save geeky hobby shops, so it looks like the retailers are on their own to figure out how to stay in business or opt to sell now before it gets really bad. I wish you guys the best, but at the same time if WotC wants my money, they have to release their product digitally. The idea of forcing a dying business model (print media) for the sake of locally owned businesses is heartwarming but ultimately fatal.
I think my opinion on this subject is noteworthy for one huge reason:
I am a new Tabletop Gamer. So new, I've only played for 3 months total.
My brother and I bought a game called Descent Journeys in the Dark for Christmas because I remembered how much I enjoyed HeroQuest as a kid (The only thing I had ever played that comes close to DND prior to Descent). Once I went back to home far away from my brother, I decided I wanted to continue that style of gameplay, so I turned online.
As I researched for games that could be played online that were similar to Descent, the most famous of all RPG's of course caught my eye. I researched DND and found it to not only be like Descent, but more fun because Character personality is involved. I enjoy creative writing, so this looked even more appealing.
But I still needed to play online, I couldn't do a DND group that meets once a week. Plus that sounded more like Improv theater than my interest in Creative Writing. So then I found a Play by Post site that hosted DND games. I was hooked.
Then I needed to decide how to purchase the materials for DND. My wife gets extremely annoyed whenever I purchase anything not on the basis of money, but on the basis of space. She doesn't like a lot of books on the bookshelf, and she certainly would hate it if I started buying miniatures (She bitterly tolerated Descent). So I researched if there were some sort of Digital Distribution for DND materials. There was the DNDinsider, but I wary of monthly subscriptions. That lead me to RPGnow and their PDF store, and I was thrilled. I started purchasing one book a month.
And yes, I went into my local stores, both chains and a game shop, and flipped through the books available to me before I bought them online. I did this twice. I didn't read the entire things like retailers get upset about with comics. I just flipped through them.
I logged in today to purchase a copy of the Monster Manual (The PHB's were more important to me out of the gate) and I learned the terrible news that they no longer sell WotC products.
So here's my response. I will NEVER purchase any DND products that are not Digital. I will NEVER pay a monthly subscription for a service that I do not get to keep once the monthly subscription is over. So that pretty much leaves PDF's as the only option for me to enjoy RPG gaming. I find it confusing that right after WotC wins a new customer, they point me to the exit. They were going to get some of my money today, but now they won't.
Again, let me stress the number 1 reason for this. My wife will not let me purchase the hard copies of WotC products. Both she and I get frustrated with too much clutter, and we don't need a new hobby taking up space in our house. However, space on a hard drive is totally fine.
So yes it sucks that some Retail stores may be getting hit bad by Amazon or PDF sales. But unfortunately, that's the way the business world turns. I doubt Obama will promote a stimulus bill to save geeky hobby shops, so it looks like the retailers are on their own to figure out how to stay in business or opt to sell now before it gets really bad. I wish you guys the best, but at the same time if WotC wants my money, they have to release their product digitally. The idea of forcing a dying business model (print media) for the sake of locally owned businesses is heartwarming but ultimately fatal.
