On Change, Old School, New School, Same School, and High School.

[Tequila Sunrise]

This is not to say that I don't enjoy encountering something new, but that the sense of wonderment I am talking about--the deep experience of the imagination catching fire--has nothing (or very little) to do with novelty, and much more to do with what I am calling archetypal resonance...along with numerous other factors such as the much bandied-around term verisimilitude, aesthetic harmony, cultural relevance, etc.

Ah, okay, I totally sympathize with you. I don't have anything real to add, other than that it is very difficult to line up all those different factors into a satisfying work of art, even for good artists.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Well I just checked out this Lady Gaga person on You Tube. Sounds like generic RnB/Pop to me. Fine if you like that, can't say I do. I like generic punk/metal.

What I really look for is what Mercurious describes as archetypal resonance and stuff. YEah that. (not feeling very eloquent today.)

 

[Ulrick]

I cannot say how much I agree with this.

I've been going through my hard drive, looking at old files from ten or more years ago, and my feelings, overall, are a mix of bewilderment and amazement. 90% of my creativity was ten years ago, and frankly, it was good. Now I'm chewing the same stuff over and over. Realizing it pisses me off.

Personally, I think I'm gravitating towards retro-clones not because of nostalgia (I pretty much started with 2e), but because stripping away the mechanics is going to force me to focus on the writing and the creation, which is all this ever was in the beginning.

Your comment reminds me of a Dragon article (in issue #216, 1995) I first read years ago "The Auld Alliance" by Arthur Collins:

These kids read the rule books before they read the stories that inspired the games. That means their palates have been trained in some strange ways.


I've also been looking at AD&D and retroclones again because I just want to tell or participate in a good adventure. Nowadays it seems people will judge a DM on the ruleset he or she uses, rather than on the DM's qualities as a DM.

And you're right. It is all about the writing and the creation. And somehow, the rules have gotten in the way of many people from seeing that. It seems like things have shifted over the years from participating in a good story/adventure to game balance, kewl powerz, and so-called game balance.

For me, 4e seemed to shift back to the creation aspect--as least for the DM, at first. But overtime it felt like I was just playing a tactical miniature battles game rather than a roleplaying game--even more so than with 3.5e.

I tried to convince people to at least try older versions of D&D or even retroclones, but to no avail.

 

[Nellisir]

Your comment reminds me of a Dragon article (in issue #216, 1995) I first read years ago "The Auld Alliance" by Arthur Collins:

These kids read the rule books before they read the stories that inspired the games. That means their palates have been trained in some strange ways.

I think that's true (I'm reading the article right now; thank goodness for the Dragon PDF archive!) Alot of D&D's appeal to me in the beginning was the structure it gave to the stuff that was in my head - I grew up without a tv (my parents decided not to replace the one that broke when I was 4), and my mom had a large collection (Children's Bookhouse + others) of children's storys. I read constantly. D&D gave alot of shape to it.

Nowadays, I wonder if D&D doesn't give structure to alot of what "kids" read (ie, FR & DL books) instead of vice versa, plus online/console games have replaced alot of the "imaginary" play. There are still incredible & potentially game-changing fantasy books being written (Strange & Norrell; The Orphan's Tale), but multi-volume epics have, for the most part, replaced individual novels by many authors (12 books = 1 story, instead of 12 books = 12 stories or 4 stories). There are obvious exceptions (Elric, Amber), but page counts have risen quite a bit in recent years. My two-volume book club copy of the Chronicles of Amber is pretty close in page count to a single Steven Erikson novel.

Anyways, didn't mean to get distracted into a rant.

Cheers!

 

[Cadfan]

There are still incredible & potentially game-changing fantasy books being written (Strange & Norrell; The Orphan's Tale), but multi-volume epics have, for the most part, replaced individual novels by many authors (12 books = 1 story, instead of 12 books = 12 stories or 4 stories).

If you mean The Orphan's Tale that I think you mean, then as one literary snob to another, have some EXP.

 

[Nellisir]

If you mean The Orphan's Tale that I think you mean, then as one literary snob to another, have some EXP.

Catherynne Valente:
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Orphans-Tales-Night-Garden/dp/0553384031/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241017881&sr=8-1"]Orphan's Tales: In the Night Garden[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Orphans-Tales-Cities-Coin-Spice/dp/055338404X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241017881&sr=8-4"]Orphan's Tales: In the Cities of Coin and Spice[/ame]

Cannot recommend enough.

Actually, in a week or so, once I wrap up my schoolwork, maybe it's time for a "Books to Change Your World" thread.

 

[Cadfan]

Catherynne Valente:
Orphan's Tales: In the Night Garden

Orphan's Tales: In the Cities of Coin and Spice

Cannot recommend enough.

Actually, in a week or so, once I wrap up my schoolwork, maybe it's time for a "Books to Change Your World" thread.

Yeah, those are the ones. Absolutely amazing.

I spent a few weeks after I read them trying to convince everyone I know to read them as well. One person, a librarian, read part of the first and then stopped because she thought they were grim. No one else even tried. Which is frustrating because I think these books are on a level where you could teach college courses about them, covering not only their use of folk history and mythology, but also their structural arrangement and their social critique.

 

[Nellisir]

Yeah, those are the ones. Absolutely amazing.

I spent a few weeks after I read them trying to convince everyone I know to read them as well. One person, a librarian, read part of the first and then stopped because she thought they were grim. No one else even tried. Which is frustrating because I think these books are on a level where you could teach college courses about them, covering not only their use of folk history and mythology, but also their structural arrangement and their social critique.

The structure is what blows my mind. Everything else is fantastic, but the level of interconnectedness and intricacy (sp) is mindblowing. I can only imagine an office totally filled with post-it notes and string.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

And you're right. It is all about the writing and the creation. And somehow, the rules have gotten in the way of many people from seeing that. It seems like things have shifted over the years from participating in a good story/adventure to game balance, kewl powerz, and so-called game balance.

For me, 4e seemed to shift back to the creation aspect--as least for the DM, at first. But overtime it felt like I was just playing a tactical miniature battles game rather than a roleplaying game--even more so than with 3.5e.

I tried to convince people to at least try older versions of D&D or even retroclones, but to no avail.

Problem is, different systems and approaches work for different people.. uh, differently. That is, if you see that 4e does not lead to better writing and more fun on your part, and if your group does not want to try older editions, you have to get a new group and game that lead to more fun.

Everybody is different - i know i would have NEVER created a homebrew world with earlier editions. My first one was for 4e. And i have always believed and will always believe that cewl powerz and game balance are superb additions to roleplay-heavy gaming. Which, in my Campaign, it does.

 

[Windjammer]

Joe, thanks for that OP. To be honest, I wasn't interested in the topic, but your name recently started to rear my head when you wrote that satirical imitation of the Greg Leeds interview. You're most certainly not without creative talent (to respond to st. you said above).

It was nice to read more about yourself. I think your OP captures really well one thing I haven't seen mentioned much on these boards: the sheer joy of passing an edition by for the first time. (And I mean joy - a calm, fulfilling emotion - and not the sort of rage and spite we've seen everywhere.) I guess it must be odd to read for some of the older players who've given 2E or 3E a pass. As for myself, I'm only half there since I've retained 3E as my game of choice but thoroughly enjoy the occasional 4E game.

Thanks for your post again, and I look forward to reading more of your stuff.