On Change, Old School, New School, Same School, and High School.

[billd91]

I hope this doesn´t sound negative, but your post also shows me that 4e did something right: a RPG has to change not only rules but also its look & feel to stay current. Your rejection of 4e (and other similar posts) show me that 4e was much more successful in finding its own identity than 3e. Honestly, especially regarding to philosophy, 3e tried far too often to eat its cake and keep it, too: simulate older editions while grafting new ideas on.

Note: no edition war intended, lets all get along.

See, my take on the 4e change is a very different one. For me, 1 -> 2 -> 3/3.5 is aging and maturing along with me. 4e is the midlife crisis. The game's out driving a Miata, divorcing his old wife for a trophy, and trying to be someone it isn't.
3e may play a bit differently from my old 1e or even 2e days, but it's a heck of a lot closer than my 4e experience.

 

[Knightfall]

Well said, Joe. Well said.

 

[sinecure]

and still got a thrill out of the purely imaginative unknown.

This is it for me right here. This is why everything I play after second edition is a total let down.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Certainly I exagerrate as we've had the Matrix. And sometimes re-booting delivers a better product that the original (Battlestar Galactica, arguably Daniel Craig as Bond), although just as often it loses its original vitality (Rollerball, Planet of the Apes, Stars Wars episodes 1-3, later Star Trek shows). But it seems that we, whether as a species or as a culture, are having difficulty manifesting creative intelligence in a fresh way...everything is a clone, or a retro-clone, a re-make, a re-this-or-that, or simply an old novel or comic brought to the screen. Battlestar Galactica comes to mind, or Star Trek, or the many comic book movies...why can't "they" think of something new? A whole new science fiction franchise?

Because the dark and gritty truth is that all good ideas have long since been 'vitalized', and then revitalized and then rerevitalized... Only when the human condition changes dramatically and significantly does the opportunity arise for an [almost] original idea.

Also, because it's easier to jump on the bandwagon than build your own wagon.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Keep it up! I guess most people settle, but not everyone does.

At sixty years of age my father was eating healthy, had been off cigarettes for ten years after a thirty-five year habit, was jogging a few kilometres four days a week, swimming a kilometre each day on weekends, ran a local youth group, met with his mates at the local RSL for a beer on Friday afternoons, and would often hover around watching the proceedings when my friends and I were gaming, looking like he wanted to take a seat at the table but always refusing to roll up a character whenever we would suggest it.

As I said when I delivered his eulogy, he was one of those people who gave up looking for the light at the end of the tunnel and carried his own torch instead.

That's a beautiful thing to say about a person.
My (probably much belated) condolences.

 

[JeffB]

Well...I'm 41 and played BD&D, 1e and 2e. I gave 3.x a good try, but except for the classes, monsters and vancian magic, 3.x never felt right.

I tried 4e as soon as I could find a game and I found it more like the older editions than 3.x ever was.

This. Except I'm 40. I find more "old school appeal" in 4E than 3E. 4E to me is a better analog to the wild & wooly days of the LBBs and early B/X where there was a "anything goes" attitude. Much less of the game, both in the rules-set and the "world system" was codified like AD&D.

So I understand much of you are saying Joe about the getting older part- EXCEPT the whole 3E is better than 4E- My literary influences were REH, ERB, HPL, Tolkien, Moorcock, and various others "S&S" or "Classic Fantasy" authors and yet I totally have the "old school disconnect" with 3E, not 4E :shrug:

Bottom line- it's all individual taste and there are a great many factors involved

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Well just the other day I told one of my younger friends (he's 23-ish) that I spent so much time down Memory Lane that I'd renamed it Nostalgia Avenue, widened it, planted rows of shade trees and put a coffee stall in about half way along so I'd have somewhere to stop for a nice breakfast. So I guess I can sympathize with you Joe.

That being said: I aint dead yet and intend to try a few more things yet before I am. I'm not really thinking about game systems you understand (yes I will try them, but there's so much more out there.) More like travelling, taking dance lessons, learning a musical instrument, maybe even diving back into serious relationships after a 12 year break. Still have to finish that damn novel too.

Oh yeah: I know what I wanted to say. About no new stories, everything in the media being re-hashed stuff from yester-year. This comes down largely to the fact that mass media is a business and businesses tend not to take risks on unknown products. They'll stick with some tired old franchise instead because they hope it will sell better. And often they are correct. What does this say about the consumers?

But there are new things I'm sure. Maybe much of it doesn't find its way into the main stream media but it's out there. Artists will create and they will prefer to create without interference from outside agencies. All the stories of our current epoch have NOT been told. In fact I don't think it's possible for this to happen. So no need for a major change in the human condition to create new stories. In fact I don't really believe in specific epochs. These are merely groupings of convenience used by historians after the fact.

Just re-read the above. Kee-rist! Sorry. It's 1.00 am and I have found myself stream of consciousness-ing. I'll shut up now.

 

[Henry]

See, my take on the 4e change is a very different one. For me, 1 -> 2 -> 3/3.5 is aging and maturing along with me. 4e is the midlife crisis. The game's out driving a Miata, divorcing his old wife for a trophy, and trying to be someone it isn't.
3e may play a bit differently from my old 1e or even 2e days, but it's a heck of a lot closer than my 4e experience.

It's weird how wildly different it's perceived given people's expectations of what they want out of the game. For my experiences, 4e plays the same length in combats, has similar math surrounding monster/PC hit dice & staying power, has numbers that fall in similar ranges, and has similar monster, DMing, and treasure assumptions, as the AD&D games I used to play in my teens and early 20's. Though everything around it is quite different, from the healing surges, to the powers & feats, etc. -- The actual play is very reminiscent to me, and looking back on 3E as I recall even the low-level games I've played from 2001 to now, it really hasn't been that similar.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

See, my take on the 4e change is a very different one. For me, 1 -> 2 -> 3/3.5 is aging and maturing along with me. 4e is the midlife crisis. The game's out driving a Miata, divorcing his old wife for a trophy, and trying to be someone it isn't.
3e may play a bit differently from my old 1e or even 2e days, but it's a heck of a lot closer than my 4e experience.

For me the editions are like an anology for school.

Basic D&D was kindergarten, it was new and because of this a bit unstructured and silly. It was where I learned more about social aspects than rules of the game.

1E was grade school. It started of just as silly and kindergarten but grew into a better understanding of deeper gaming.

2E was high school. The game became a little more serious and there were some subjects I didn't like.

3E was college. It started off as an exciting new venture. It was different and engaging. But as time wore on the subject material became more and more difficult and it was alot of work to reach the payoff.

Now 4E is post-college. No more studying. I get to spend my* time having fun. I have more freedom to do the extras that are enjoyable instead of crunching for a test. Like buying a big 1" square presentation pad and creating more dynamic and colorful poster maps instead of scribling out a crappy-looking hand drawn map during play on my battlemat.


*(Work is an add-on that I am discounting from my anology since I have been working in one form or another since grade shool.)

 

[Nellisir]

Reading Lisa Stevens posts you get a sense of her excitement and energy. I've never met her, but by her posts I would bet she is an enthusiastic person who loves her life and what she does every day. All that carries over to her employees and their products. I would love to hang out there for a day. Hell, if I had any creative talent, I'd love to work there.

I lucked out; I got to have dinner with Erik Mona and Lisa Stevens, and a bunch of other people, at the only Gen Con I ever attended. This was long before Paizo - it was the Gen Con they announced 3e, actually, and I knew Erik and alot of other Greyhawk people from message boards and the Canonfire website. I was pulling together old posts from the AOL/Greyhawk boards into "articles" for ezine compilation, and getting involved in the Oerth Journal.

Anyways, Lisa was great. It was a real pleasure to meet her. Erik was pretty cool too.

Oh, and of all the modern talent to snub, you pick Lady Gaga? Sheesh. I'm 37, and she's one of the few "new" artists I can stand. Actual talent there; not a performing mannequin.