On Change, Old School, New School, Same School, and High School.

Fallen Seraph

First Post
I think with the internet and the amount of information/resources we have now this is going to become less and less of a common thing. With the internet kids, teenagers and adults can discover much more then what is abundant around them. The recent rise in Steampunk-subculture in the last couple years has been attested to the spread it has had over the internet, to give one example.

Now while people will still find a comfort area/place they know best, there won't be a common thread, ie; hair-styles of a certain era. You won't be able to tell since there will be much more abundance of different things around that people draw from.
 
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I get it, too.

The world changes, but there's a part of life that involves finding one's place in it, and setting down "roots".

These roots don't have to be a physical place, and in fact, the physical place, if any, is more of a symptoms of the "mental" or "metaphysical" roots.


Sometimes it is good to be "left behind" with the times of yesteryear. I think it is natural.


Interestingly, (this may seem tangetial, but I don't think it is) intelligence works in much this way.

In one theory (if memory serves, it is Raymond and Cattell's theory.) intelligence is divided into two types: fluid and crystaline. Fluid intelligence is about learning, adapting and discovering. Crystalline intelligence is wrote knowledge (including facts but also schemas on how to do things, like interact at a party or in the officeplace or ride a bicycle)

My three year old son has likely 90% fluid intelligence (soaks up new words like a sponge, learns dozens of new things every day) and 10% Crystalline intelligence: he is primed to learn, but doesn't know much.

As we age, the ratio shifts more and more, eventually we have far, far more crystalline intelligence (think the elderly here). This group is less adaptable, in part because of biological factors but also because these people have ways of doing things. They've learned how, and it is more work to learn a new way when the other way works just fine.

So, what I'm saying is that, not only is this a natural thing, it is likely a destined biological/psychological thing.

Embrace it and enjoy it, and fight it when it suits you. That's my advice.
 


Mercurius

Legend
Nice post, Joe. I really enjoy biographical sketches as pertain to RPGs and you wrote yours with eloquence and a kind of contagious nostalgia. I too just recently moved back to the town of my high school at the age of 35, and after having lived in numerous places across the country (and world); yet I did it to become a teacher at my old high school!

My personal view on 3/4 ed is closer to Mircoles in that I feel that 4ed better evokes the "old school vibe" because of its relative simplicity and its emphasis on a kind of cinematic play. When 3ed came out I remember thinking, "Finally, D&D has caught up with the rest of the RPG world and has a core mechanic." But then I realized that this simple core mechanic was overburdened with endless modifiers and an enormous amount of seemingly unnecessary rules.

It is also interesting to note that you are relating a game that came out only nine years ago with your youth. In other words, why do you relate 3.x -- which came out when you were about 30 -- with a kind of imaginative play that you feel characteristic of your youth? Perhaps you crystallized roleplaying-wise 9-10 years ago and thus attached yourself to 3.x as your "RPG Mullet"? Given the overall content of your post I would have thought you would be playing 1e or even OD&D, because many of the aspects you seem to dislike in 4ed are actually quite prevalent--even more so--in 3ed ("builds", class combos, reliance on magic items, etc).

I tend to think that the edition or game itself is far secondary to how you play it, so that what you are looking for in a game can be there if you want it to be there. I suppose it depends upon how much you want to customize the "crunch" for your "fluff." In that sense there are really two factors: the rule system itself and the tone or "vibe" of a game, especially as evoked through its art, but also its "fluff." Correct me if I'm wrong, but my sense is that what you are turned off with about 4ed has less to do with the game mechanics and more to do with the fluff that "coats" it. I personally don't like most of the 4ed art (some of it is quite frankly embarassing); I don't like dragonborn or tieflings, and I wish 4ed better accomodated "traditional" fantasy in which characters didn't start as heroes but became them. But I feel that the game mechanics themselves are an evolution from 3ed, but that the "fluff" is more a reflection of current cultural elements which I resonate less with than previous editions.

Disclaimer Interlude: This is not an edition war!!!

That aside, it has also been my observation that the majority of folks become attached to a self-image of their late teens or early 20s and life thereafter is one of constant disappointment and diminishing returns; however, I don't think we are inherently programmed to follow that relatively tragic route (It is a bleak picture, no?). Most do, but that doesn't make it the healthy or even natural thing to do (Most people eat fast and processed foods, after all). It relates to Aberzanzorax's mention of fluid vs. crystalline intelligence: to some extent the degree to which we crystallize is the degree to which we die while living (become undead!). This is not to say that we shouldn't form a sense of self and knowledge about the world, but that, in my opinion, it should always remain fluid, as if we have Hamlet's famous line to Horatio tattooed in our consciousness: There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. In other words, I am positing that there healthy and pathological forms of crystallization, and that the prevalent and even culturally accepted is the pathological, which is that of an inorganic solid; the healthy form is more of an organic membrane that is able to take on different forms, depending upon context, and continues to grow. Think static vs. dynamic.

To put it another way, when we "crystallize" we stop growing, we stop evolving as human beings. And, I would put forth, we stop feeling that spark of youth and discovery which is, in many ways, what RPG players seek after when they continue to play, or take up again, gaming into their 30s, 40s and beyond. The sense of wonder. Imaginative freedom. Awe. Ahhh...There is nothing quite like that feeling of cognitive opening, of not simply figuring something out but realizing that the world is much larger--and much more mysterious--than we previously "knew" (or thought we knew).

Many "career gamers" settle into a kind of workaday gaming aesthetic in which those sorts of peak experiences are relatively rare and the normal experience is far more mundane. But, like a musician who seeks to enter the flow of their instrument, my guess is that in the heart of every gamer is the yearning to not only recapture the wonderment of youth's fresh experience of the fantastical, but something even deeper and profound, something glimpsed ever-so briefly by the imagination...a depth of mystery and wonderment that the child's experience was merely just a precursor of. Most don't get there, though, but we all at least intuit it.

The aging former-high-school-football star sitting on his couch with a growing girth, an unhappy (2nd or 3rd) marriage, and a dead-end job is really a tragic figure. But it is not because he (or she) is no longer a high school football star, but because he (or she) crystallized at that age and did not continue to grow but instead atrophied, withered, became old when so young, and thus never really grew up in the fullest sense of human potential. It has to do with upbringing but also the inability of our educational system to teach a true love of learning and the skills to facillitate life-long exploration and consciousness evolution. I would also argue that it has to do with certain cultural factors that actually inhibit imaginative capacity, like video games, TV, and other forms of media. I am reminded of those "blob people" in the movie Wall-E who had lost their capacity to think for themselves, to generate anything from within; they were passive viewers.

So I personally don't see you as an "old guy who is losing it" because you become thrilled at designing a sword and sorcery world (if you are, then so am I...maybe we can start an Asylum together! ;); I see you as a maturing man who wants to feel alive within, and who does so through exercising that most precious human capacity: imagination.
 

joethelawyer

Banned
Banned
My personal view on 3/4 ed is closer to Mircoles in that I feel that 4ed better evokes the "old school vibe" because of its relative simplicity and its emphasis on a kind of cinematic play. When 3ed came out I remember thinking, "Finally, D&D has caught up with the rest of the RPG world and has a core mechanic." But then I realized that this simple core mechanic was overburdened with endless modifiers and an enormous amount of seemingly unnecessary rules.

It is also interesting to note that you are relating a game that came out only nine years ago with your youth. In other words, why do you relate 3.x -- which came out when you were about 30 -- with a kind of imaginative play that you feel characteristic of your youth? Perhaps you crystallized roleplaying-wise 9-10 years ago and thus attached yourself to 3.x as your "RPG Mullet"? Given the overall content of your post I would have thought you would be playing 1e or even OD&D, because many of the aspects you seem to dislike in 4ed are actually quite prevalent--even more so--in 3ed ("builds", class combos, reliance on magic items, etc).

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. You're close. We play 3.0 in name only. To tell the truth, we've houseruled it so heavily that it's more like AD&D. We took out special combat moves like grapple, trip, bull rush, etc. We make thieves not able to backstab in combat. We don't allow prestige classes. And we have eliminated buff spells that add to ability scores, and magic items which do the same. Makes for a more fun game, imho.
 

Orius

Legend
I feel some of the same way myself, I've been having a hard time feeling interested in 4e partially because some of the flavor is unrecognizable. The D&D I'm familiar with is from about 10 years ago, late 2e and early 3e material and assumptions upon which I built an overarching cosmology for my campaigns. Some of 4e's background disrupts that cosmology, so I'm not interested. Some of it's more practical; I'm not currently involved in a group and I haven't been in several years, and I see little practical reason to spend money I really don't have to spare on a new set of books. There's some nostalgia involved as well, I feel that my best DMing occurred during the 3e campaigns I ran, so it makes me want to stay with those rules.
 

joethelawyer

Banned
Banned
Nice post, Joe. I really enjoy biographical sketches as pertain to RPGs and you wrote yours with eloquence and a kind of contagious nostalgia. I too just recently moved back to the town of my high school at the age of 35, and after having lived in numerous places across the country (and world); yet I did it to become a teacher at my old high school!

.....

Disclaimer Interlude: This is not an edition war!!!

That aside, it has also been my observation that the majority of folks become attached to a self-image of their late teens or early 20s and life thereafter is one of constant disappointment and diminishing returns; however, I don't think we are inherently programmed to follow that relatively tragic route (It is a bleak picture, no?). Most do, but that doesn't make it the healthy or even natural thing to do (Most people eat fast and processed foods, after all). It relates to Aberzanzorax's mention of fluid vs. crystalline intelligence: to some extent the degree to which we crystallize is the degree to which we die while living (become undead!). This is not to say that we shouldn't form a sense of self and knowledge about the world, but that, in my opinion, it should always remain fluid, as if we have Hamlet's famous line to Horatio tattooed in our consciousness: There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. In other words, I am positing that there healthy and pathological forms of crystallization, and that the prevalent and even culturally accepted is the pathological, which is that of an inorganic solid; the healthy form is more of an organic membrane that is able to take on different forms, depending upon context, and continues to grow. Think static vs. dynamic.

To put it another way, when we "crystallize" we stop growing, we stop evolving as human beings. And, I would put forth, we stop feeling that spark of youth and discovery which is, in many ways, what RPG players seek after when they continue to play, or take up again, gaming into their 30s, 40s and beyond. The sense of wonder. Imaginative freedom. Awe. Ahhh...There is nothing quite like that feeling of cognitive opening, of not simply figuring something out but realizing that the world is much larger--and much more mysterious--than we previously "knew" (or thought we knew).

Many "career gamers" settle into a kind of workaday gaming aesthetic in which those sorts of peak experiences are relatively rare and the normal experience is far more mundane. But, like a musician who seeks to enter the flow of their instrument, my guess is that in the heart of every gamer is the yearning to not only recapture the wonderment of youth's fresh experience of the fantastical, but something even deeper and profound, something glimpsed ever-so briefly by the imagination...a depth of mystery and wonderment that the child's experience was merely just a precursor of. Most don't get there, though, but we all at least intuit it.

The aging former-high-school-football star sitting on his couch with a growing girth, an unhappy (2nd or 3rd) marriage, and a dead-end job is really a tragic figure. But it is not because he (or she) is no longer a high school football star, but because he (or she) crystallized at that age and did not continue to grow but instead atrophied, withered, became old when so young, and thus never really grew up in the fullest sense of human potential. It has to do with upbringing but also the inability of our educational system to teach a true love of learning and the skills to facillitate life-long exploration and consciousness evolution. I would also argue that it has to do with certain cultural factors that actually inhibit imaginative capacity, like video games, TV, and other forms of media. I am reminded of those "blob people" in the movie Wall-E who had lost their capacity to think for themselves, to generate anything from within; they were passive viewers.

So I personally don't see you as an "old guy who is losing it" because you become thrilled at designing a sword and sorcery world (if you are, then so am I...maybe we can start an Asylum together! ;); I see you as a maturing man who wants to feel alive within, and who does so through exercising that most precious human capacity: imagination.

I thought I'd respond to your other section in a separate post.

I agree completely. The only reason I think I didn't crystallize in the typical way was because I had a sort of early mid-life crisis at around age 32, and went out west to "find myself" for a few years. Being single with no kids allowed me to do that. The whole experience involved a lot of "unlearning". Unlearning what I was taught, how I was brought up, who I thought I was.

It's sort of like rewiring yourself, erasing the chalkboard in your head, and consciously making yourself somebody, rather than just ending up as somebody. Making yourself a creator of your own life, rather than having your life be a result.

There's a quote that I like which goes to this point:

"Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself." George Bernard Shaw

Along with all of that comes an unlocking of the imagination. Letting go of rules which hold you back. I love the part of the quote from above where it says:

"Whether sixty or sixteen, there is in every human being's heart the lure of wonder, the unfailing child-like appetite of what's next, and the joy of the game of living."

As far as we know, we're all here for a short time and then there's nothing. I spent the first half of my life as an end product, a result of education, culture, family, and my experiences. Then I had to unlearn all that. I want to spend the last half of my life as the creator of what comes next. Along with that, intimately tied into it, is imagination. I firmly believe you can't be something which you can't imagine. The greater your capacity to imagine, the less rules and restrictions you place on your creativity, the more potential your life has to be whatever you want it to be.

That's what attracts me to the whole sword and sorcery aspect of the game these days. Especially to characters like Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser and Conan. They drank it all in and lived every second of life!

There was a part a Fafhrd and Grey Mouser story in Swords in the Mist, when girls who Fafhrd was intimate with turned into pigs. All of them. He couldn't get any action, and blamed it on the Mouser.

"It would not be the first time," observed the Mouser portentously, slipping his fingers inside his robe, "that I have had to fight you over a woman."
"But it would be the first time," asserted Fafhrd, with an even greater portentousness, "that you had to fight me over a pig!"
For a moment he maintained his belligerent posture, head lowered, jaw outthrust, eyes slitted. Then he began to laugh.
It was something, Fafhrd's laughter. It began with windy snickers through the nostrils, next spewed out between clenched teeth, then became a series of jolting chortles, swiftly grew into a roar against which the barbarian had to brace himself, legs spread wide, head thrown back, as if against a gale. It was a laughter of the storm-lashed forest or the sea, a laughter that conjured up wide visions, that seemed to blow from a more primeval, heartier, lusher time. It was the laugh of the Elder Gods observing their creature man and noting their omissions, miscalculations and mistakes.
The Mouser's lips began to twitch. He grimaced wryly, seeking to avoid the infection. Then he joined in.
Fafhrd paused, panted, snatched up the wine pitcher, drained it.
"Pig-trickery!" he bellowed, and began to laugh all over again.
The Tyrian riffraff gawked at them in wonder -- astounded, awestruck, their imaginations cloudily stirred.



I love that passage. It shows an appreciation of life and all of its absurdities.

Steve Jobs, in a speech to Stanford a few years ago, had this to say to the graduates:

"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary."

What does all this have to do with D&D? Everything!

Imagination is everything. If we an imagine it, we can become it. Anything which helps us develop an unfettered imgination is a tool to a better life. D&D or any roleplaying game, or any exercise in creativity, is something to be sought after and treasured.

I had a teacher who used to say "Don't et school get in the way of your education."

I change it around somewhat and say "Don't let rules get in the way of your imagination."
 

Jack99

Adventurer
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. You're close. We play 3.0 in name only. To tell the truth, we've houseruled it so heavily that it's more like AD&D. We took out special combat moves like grapple, trip, bull rush, etc. We make thieves not able to backstab in combat. We don't allow prestige classes. And we have eliminated buff spells that add to ability scores, and magic items which do the same. Makes for a more fun game, imho.

You have said that a million times on these boards - and every time I read it, I silent nod my head over here, on my side of the pond (and the computer). This is pretty much what I wish I had done instead of playing 3.x by the book.

However, and I might just be missing a point here, if that is indeed how you want to play, why on earth are you switching to Pathfinder? Pathfinder seems to be even less oldschool than 3.0/3.5.
 

Jack7

First Post
Welcome aboard Joe.

Though I reckon I sorta have the opposite problem. The older I get the more people tell me I'm becoming a kid again. If only my body worked that way too.

Still, this all reminds me of something my great grandpappy told me one time. He said, "Boy, the more things change the more they stay the same, and the more they stay the same, the more they change into something you never expected."
 


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