Epic/Immortal Prestige Classes

Hey Belzamus dude! :)

Great thread. I'll be posting more on it over the next few days. A few of the abilities look a bit annoying (Martial Titan for instance).

If I can find my notes I'll post up the ideas I had for Prestige Classes.

Off the top of my head I seem to recall there was one pencilled down as "Mithril Drinker" who could imbibe metal (visually something like Witchblade its just occured to me) and would gain certain properties.

Necrolater: worshipper of dead gods.

Familiarist: spellcaster with multiple familiars.

I think I had about 15 ideas or thereabouts, I'll see if I can find any notes.
 

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shadethief

First Post
I like these ideas. Out of curiousity, do you think you could develop an epic level class that mixes both stealth & magic use. Kinda like an epic spellthief, but actually useful.
 

Kerrick

First Post
Okay, I'm short on time here, so I can't quote everything.

I like both your ideas for BA, the 5 level advancement and the HD.
Cool.

Likewise, that's a cool idea for the Godslayer andmaybe I can stretch it's levels out a little too. (Not that there's anything wrong with 10, I just feel that in epic, there's no need for a maximum of 10 any more, especally in U_K's system.)
I wouldn't go more than 15, really - 20 levels is more of a base class than a PrC. I've got a few 15-tier PrCs, but those are mainly because I had too many abilities to cram into 10. :D

Heh, well granted, he has ~13 million hp himself, so it isn't THAT much damage, though he could easily kill himself. Couple those attacks with infinite reach though and...ouch.
13 million. Yow.

Lastly, those all sound like some really cool ideas to differentiate Seneschal and Godslayer. I like.
It's like I said in the article - think of a theme for the class, then come up with abilities that fit it. It makes things a lot easier.

Off the top of my head I seem to recall there was one pencilled down as "Mithril Drinker" who could imbibe metal (visually something like Witchblade its just occured to me) and would gain certain properties.
Cool... something like that mutant who gains the properties of whatever material he touches?

I like these ideas. Out of curiousity, do you think you could develop an epic level class that mixes both stealth & magic use. Kinda like an epic spellthief, but actually useful.
Hmm. That's a good idea... are you looking for something assassin-like, thief-like, or just stealthy in general?
 

shadethief

First Post
Acutally, somethingto incorporate all three. With some abilities allowing him to steal attribute points, special qualities, etc. I'm just not that well veresed in creating something relatively balanced. Maybe shoot for around a 5oth level PC to meet the requirements. Using abilities like Hide in Plain Sight, somehow combine Death Attack to work with the Steal Spell abilities from the spellthief. Just a few ideas.
 

Hiya shadethief mate! :)

shadethief said:
Acutally, somethingto incorporate all three. With some abilities allowing him to steal attribute points, special qualities, etc. I'm just not that well veresed in creating something relatively balanced. Maybe shoot for around a 5oth level PC to meet the requirements. Using abilities like Hide in Plain Sight, somehow combine Death Attack to work with the Steal Spell abilities from the spellthief. Just a few ideas.

I really should have finished my revision of the 3.5E Rogue Class (as I did with the Fighter and Barbarian). :(
 

shadethief

First Post
Truth be told, your version of the rogue was the one I was looking forward to the most. One day, perhaps I'll get to see what ideas you had in mind for sneaky mother's like myself....
 

Kerrick

First Post
Acutally, somethingto incorporate all three. With some abilities allowing him to steal attribute points, special qualities, etc. I'm just not that well veresed in creating something relatively balanced. Maybe shoot for around a 5oth level PC to meet the requirements. Using abilities like Hide in Plain Sight, somehow combine Death Attack to work with the Steal Spell abilities from the spellthief. Just a few ideas.
I don't know if I could do something that high level, since I'm not really familiar with immortal play, but here are some ideas...

Touch attack to "steal" attributes/supernatural abilities.

On a successful death attack that kills the target, you gain one or more of the target's spells known/prepared.

Can expend spell slots (either your own or those stolen; not sure on this) to... go invisible, dimension door, HiPS, or something else thief-like.

The ability to cast spells without anyone being able to detect them (like Subtle Spell, but no Spellcraft check to detect it).

Arcane Death Strike. Not sure what this does, but the name sounds cool... maybe a death strike infused with magical energy?

This would be about 25th-30th level, I think; I'm thinking at least 10-15 in mage and rogue or similar classes.
 

Belzamus

First Post
For some reason the concept reminds be vaguely of the Ur-Priest in the Book of Vile Darkness, the actual abilities, not the flavor behind them.

Also, when balancing, keep in mind the Void Incarnate class that's free on Wizards' site (just google Void Incarnate) as it is, right now, THE premier rogue Epic PrC, allowing sneak attacks on every hit and a slew of awesome immunites. This class would need to be as good as that, at the least, if not better. It's more or less undetectable too, so it kind of covers the epic "stealth" role.

The other problem with designing these is to avoid overlapping with abilities that are granted by feats in Ascension, since there's so many of them. I've never built an epic rogue so I'm not to familiar with what they get from Ascension, but I'll try and take a look.

Any idea how the class would interact with Assassin either? What if you had, say, a rogue 3/Wizard 6/Assassin 6/Arcane Trickster 10 going into this? Could the class possibly advance both types of spellcasting? O add the Assassin list to the wizard's? Just a thought.

For Arcane Death Strike...how about you add the level of the spell you expend as a free action to the DC of the Death Attack? (Though that sounds almost non-epic). Deliver Death Attacks as part of a spell? If the target makes their save they take 1d10 damage per your CL? I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there.

How about an ability to expend a spell slot to get Xd6 to all Sneak Attacks for that round? (9th level=+9d6)

For a chasis, would you still be looking at d6 HD and medium attack bonus? Obviously advancing Arcane Spellcasting every level too.

I don't know, for some reason it seems like you could build this kind of character well enough even without a specified prestige class. It's gonna have to give some HUGE benefits to make it more attractive than Void Incarnate (which has no Sneak Attack progression, but there's an Epic Feat to mitigate that). It should probably focus very heavily on integrating arcane spellcasting into sneaky abilities, it's just hard to think of good ideas for that concept.

How about allowing Rogue levels to stack for Arcane Caster Level? Or maybe adding in the number of SA dice to it instead?

We need a name too. Any ideas? Occultist? Shadow Sage? Umbra?

I think there should be a variant for Warlock/Rogues too, since that's an awesome combination.
 

Kerrick

First Post
For some reason the concept reminds be vaguely of the Ur-Priest in the Book of Vile Darkness, the actual abilities, not the flavor behind them.
Never seen it, can't comment. :)

Also, when balancing, keep in mind the Void Incarnate class that's free on Wizards' site (just google Void Incarnate) as it is, right now, THE premier rogue Epic PrC, allowing sneak attacks on every hit and a slew of awesome immunites. This class would need to be as good as that, at the least, if not better. It's more or less undetectable too, so it kind of covers the epic "stealth" role.
Yugh. Okay, some of the abilities (Blank Aura, Blank, Mind, Null Strike) are good. Void Presence is overpowered, and any decent rogue character would already have Imp. Evasion by that level. It's kind of like an epic Shadowdancer, in which case I can see the Mettle abilities. It needs higher prereqs, IMO - I'd put it around L30.

The one I have in mind, though, doesn't even come close to this. The VIn is all about "You don't see me, you don't know me, you can't do anything!", whereas mine (we really need a name for this thing) is "I'm an arcane assassin who uses spell power to enhance my abilities."

The other problem with designing these is to avoid overlapping with abilities that are granted by feats in Ascension, since there's so many of them. I've never built an epic rogue so I'm not to familiar with what they get from Ascension, but I'll try and take a look.
Given the sheer number of feats and classes out there, just about anything you design will overlap with something.

Any idea how the class would interact with Assassin either? What if you had, say, a rogue 3/Wizard 6/Assassin 6/Arcane Trickster 10 going into this? Could the class possibly advance both types of spellcasting? O add the Assassin list to the wizard's? Just a thought.
+1 level of arcane spellcasting class. Simple. Adds to whatever you want. :)

For Arcane Death Strike...how about you add the level of the spell you expend as a free action to the DC of the Death Attack? (Though that sounds almost non-epic). Deliver Death Attacks as part of a spell? If the target makes their save they take 1d10 damage per your CL? I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there.
Adding spell level is a decent ability, though a bit low level. I like delivering a spell as part of the death attack - you can cast the spell (must be standard action or less) and store it in your weapon for up to three rounds; thereafter, if you make the DA, the spell's level adds to the DC. If the target makes the save, it applies against both the DA and the spell; if he fails, he suffers both effects fully. Course, if you're trying to kill someone, it seems like a moot point to put a spell effect into the strike too...

How about an ability to expend a spell slot to get Xd6 to all Sneak Attacks for that round? (9th level=+9d6)
Not bad. Might be a bit powerful, but you could limit it to uses/day, or half the level in dice.

For a chasis, would you still be looking at d6 HD and medium attack bonus? Obviously advancing Arcane Spellcasting every level too.
Every other level - you're already getting badass rogue/assassin abilities, and this isn't a class designed toward pure casters.

I don't know, for some reason it seems like you could build this kind of character well enough even without a specified prestige class. It's gonna have to give some HUGE benefits to make it more attractive than Void Incarnate (which has no Sneak Attack progression, but there's an Epic Feat to mitigate that). It should probably focus very heavily on integrating arcane spellcasting into sneaky abilities, it's just hard to think of good ideas for that concept.
Like I said, different concepts.

How about allowing Rogue levels to stack for Arcane Caster Level? Or maybe adding in the number of SA dice to it instead?
Ehh.... I dunno.

We need a name too. Any ideas? Occultist? Shadow Sage? Umbra?
I'd go with Arcane Assassin, but there's already one with that name. Maybe something Latin, like Veneficus Lamnia (magical blade).

I think there should be a variant for Warlock/Rogues too, since that's an awesome combination.
Yugh, warlocks. :p
 

Belzamus

First Post
Never seen it, can't comment. :)

It's in Complete Divine too. They steal spells and SLAs from opponents, similar to a Spellthief.

Yugh. Okay, some of the abilities (Blank Aura, Blank, Mind, Null Strike) are good. Void Presence is overpowered, and any decent rogue character would already have Imp. Evasion by that level. It's kind of like an epic Shadowdancer, in which case I can see the Mettle abilities. It needs higher prereqs, IMO - I'd put it around L30.

Taking into account the Maskim in the Bestiary and its ability to SA on every hit, I'd hardly say that Void Presence is overpowered for an Immortals Handbook game. (I'm assuming that's the ability that makes every hit a SA.) Level 30 does seem appropriate though.

The one I have in mind, though, doesn't even come close to this. The VIn is all about "You don't see me, you don't know me, you can't do anything!", whereas mine (we really need a name for this thing) is "I'm an arcane assassin who uses spell power to enhance my abilities."

I think it's a cool idea, but I think we might have differing opinions on what's too powerful and what's not. :p My group likes to optimize with Ascension, which already sets the bar high, and that's the system I design for and how I gauge balance, whereas you have your own modified ruleset, right?


Given the sheer number of feats and classes out there, just about anything you design will overlap with something.

Well, it's more to the point that there aren't THAT many concepts for epic feats and class abilities, and you want to avoid an epic PrC being nothing more than a collection of feats.

+1 level of arcane spellcasting class. Simple. Adds to whatever you want. :)

I suppose.


Adding spell level is a decent ability, though a bit low level. I like delivering a spell as part of the death attack - you can cast the spell (must be standard action or less) and store it in your weapon for up to three rounds; thereafter, if you make the DA, the spell's level adds to the DC. If the target makes the save, it applies against both the DA and the spell; if he fails, he suffers both effects fully. Course, if you're trying to kill someone, it seems like a moot point to put a spell effect into the strike too...


How about the reverse, using Death Attack DC for the spell's DC?

Also, I'm having visions of delivering a Death Attack via Finger of Death. :devil:

Not bad. Might be a bit powerful, but you could limit it to uses/day, or half the level in dice.

Uses per day are SO 20 levels ago. ;) I suppose if you're going for a more...mellow game, than yeah, some restrictions should apply. I'm a bit loose as a DM when it comes to that (which I make up for by throwing appalling challenges at the party)


Every other level - you're already getting badass rogue/assassin abilities, and this isn't a class designed toward pure casters.

I don't really agree, but that's fine. I wouldn't bat an eye at getting full SA/DA and full Arcane Spellcasting, especially with a rogue's chasis. It's your idea, though. I don't really have super ninja-mages in my setting, which is what I build PrCs for, so I'm just offering input.


Like I said, different concepts.

True, but what's to stop every epic rogue from taking both?

Ehh.... I dunno.

Well, I prefer to not have worthless abilities that lag 20 levels behind my character level at epic, but whatever. I suppose even 1/2 casting can't hurt a rogue.

I'd go with Arcane Assassin, but there's already one with that name. Maybe something Latin, like Veneficus Lamnia (magical blade).

Your call.


Yugh, warlocks. :p

Blasphemy!
 

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