PRPG Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Summoner and Witch

[Xendria]

Assuming a 17th level summoner (24 cha) and a 17th level conjurer, the conjurer will be able to cast summon monster IX twice per day with a duration of 25 rounds as a full round action. This seems completely reasonable until compared to the summoner, who can cast summon monster IX 10 times per day (assuming a 24 cha) with a 17 minute duration as a standard action. He can also cast it normally if in a bind twice at that level (the same amount as the 17th level conjurer) and he doesn't even have to make that choice until the situation presents it self.

In my opinion the Eidolon is perfectly balanced until you bring into play the amazing amount of battle field strategy the summoner will have at his disposal with it plus the summons. Give it support feats such as Greater Bullrush or Greater Trip and things will begin to drop incredibly quick. I believe that the problem lies in the summon monster SLA, not the Eidolon or the summoner himself at all.

**also with the extended duration, if the summoner expects a large assault he can have an army at his disposal seconds before an attack.

 

[Sylrae]

I'm not the only one to see summoner as a much needed option am I?
Or a necromancer who's truly badass in the Command Undead + Summon/Create Undead Hordes variety?

The fact that you could no longer do so with the core classes was one of the reasons I disliked 4e upon release (it was hard but you could manage it with proper multiclassing and feat selection and if you could take a PrC or 2 even better). I flipped to the mage and thought: "Eww, he's all AoE and damage effects."

which is, you know, what they were going for, whereas when I go for spellcasters I rarely want to specialize in AoE and crowd control, instead going for things like polymorph, charm, dominate, geas, summon monster, etc.

Paizo's summoner is a bit on the powerful side, but being able to summon monster like that is a needed role. I looked at the Eidolon and it seems cool, though I'd be just as happy with just having the ability to summon something of the appropriate CR and keep it around until I can summon something more powerful. (So a Permanent Summon 1, Summon 2, etc, with greatly expanded lists of options.)

 

[Xendria]

If you look at the undead focused oracle, it handles the summoning/controlling undead category pretty well.

On the topic of the summoner, I agree. The Eidolon fits perfect as a unique and needed class. I've personally been waiting for something like this since 3E. But what I'm saying is focus on the Eidolon, not another classes ability (aka the conjurer). Give them the extended duration (1 min/level) but don't give them 3 + cha times per day and as a standard action to boot. I mean the spell is on their spell list. Or another fix could be giving them the 3 + cha / day but it isn't on their spell list, and limit the number of creatures to like 2 at a time. Or even make the number of creatures level dependent. I just think its ridiculous to have a level 17 summoner with his Eidolon with an AC 30 and 10 Astral Deva's marching into battle. /rant.

 

[Starbuck_II]

A lvl 12 Wizard (Conjurer) using Summon Monster I to summon a 1 HD monster with a +1 BAB, and throwing that monster against a CR 12 opponent, is really no more powerful than the lvl 12 Wizard (Evoker) who decides to throw a magic missile....in fact, he's *less* powerful....that magic missile will do 5d4+1 dmg, no save, whereas summoning the 1 HD monster took up the Conjurer's action, and created a monster who might have a 5% chance of hitting (on a 20).

The extra action caused by the summoned monster really won't do much at that level.

I think you are summoning the wrong monsters.
Summon a spider: web attack works on everything up to 1 size larger. Yes, it is nothing more than a tanglefoot bag almost, but hey it has a couple/day. And the spider can then poison enemies with its bite.

Only some monsters are tanks, some are casters (Dretch), and others are specialist (special ability users).

 

[Mark Chance]

This is an extreme example, I understand....

In RPGs as in law: Extreme cases make bad law.

 

[GlassJaw]

Why do we have to bring the Leadership feat into this? Everyone knows that feat is broken.

You mean the ability to have a permanent ally is broken? Hmm, kind of sounds like, oh, I don't know, this Summoner class or animal companion.

And last I checked, Leadership is in the PF core rulebook.

 

[Sylrae]

Or possibly, the ability to have a permanent ally that you pay so little for is broken.

If your permanent ally is factored into the power of each of your class levels that's one thing.

If all you had to do was take a feat, supposed to be worth a little under a 5th of a total level's worth of benefits, thats a different story. Particularly when the allies granted by leadership are getting better without you paying for them more.

 

[Jason Bulmahn]

Interesting feedback folks.

As a note, I tend, as a designer, to push things as far as I think they can go and scale back as necessary. Sometimes I do not go far enough, but that is not as common as going a bit too far. This of course, applies to material that we are going to playtest. I am a bit more conservative with direct to print material.

So yes.. the Summoner is maybe a bit too good right now. I am looking through all of my feedback and I am getting that a lot. That said, I am still waiting for a bit more concrete feedback. I would not want to make changes based solely on hypotheticals and perceived imbalances.

Keep on rolling.. I am reading.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

 

[Chronologist]

I played a 5th level Summoner this afternoon for a few hours, and it was perfectly balanced. The Eidolon, however, was not. Spell list and spells per day? Worked great. Extended summoning abilities? Not a problem. The Eidolon was the imbalance, wiping out way more than its share of enemies. A large number of Undead fell to it, and after a while the party just started healing it and letting the creature loose. It performed about as well as the main party fighter. Granted, he was standard 3.5, but I don't think the player enjoyed getting showed up by a summon.

I'd recommend EITHER having an Eidolon OR having extended summons, but not both.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Feedback

OK, I don't have a game to playtest this in at the moment, but I favor this:

1) keep the extended summons SLAs with extended durations. This is the classes core competency.

2) drop the Eidolon, completely. It might make a good feature for a different class, it's super cool -- just too much power in combination with the SLAs

3) move some of the spells (haste, dimension door, greater invis) back to their original levels. The summoner shouldn't be focused on buffing the party, in my opinion --certainly he should not be better at this than a bard.

4) drop the armor proficiency, go to a d6 HD and poor BAB. This class is about getting others to do your bidding, not being a warrior.

After you drop all that, if it's too weak build in class features that make the SLAs better/more interesting. For example, the ability to see through the eyes of a summoned creature, or merge with its form, might be cool.

BTW I really like the witch. It's really cool how she's so focused on her familiar. She needs a way to upgrade her familiar to an imp or something without losing all her spells though! Also, she needs a broom!

Ken