PRPG Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Summoner and Witch

[Alzrius]

This is minor, but did anyone notice how the summoner references a spell called transmogrify (which apparently lets the summoner redistribute evolution points; it's under the Evolution Pool entry of the Eidolon section) that then doesn't appear in the summoner's spell list? That may be due to this just being a playtest document, but otherwise it's a summoner spell that the summoner can't cast, apparently.

EDIT: Also, it's pointless to have the witch's cackle hex affect her ward hex, since the former makes a hex last for 1 additional round, while the latter lasts for an indefinite duration until the warded creature is hit or fails a saving throw.

 

[Zurai]

It gets casting in armor, a pet that's as tough as the fighter, bard casting with way better spells than a bard (haste as a 2nd level spell, greater invisibility as a 3rd level spell, for example). Plus boatloads of summon monster spells (and summon monster got way better in Pathfinder).

I think it's significantly too good.

Ken

As opposed to the druid, who get casting in heavier armor, a pet that's as tough as a fighter, full casting with better spells than a bard, plus spontaneous summon nature's ally?

Summoners and Bards fulfill entirely different party roles. The Summoner is as close to a gish base class as you're likely to see from Paizo -- in 4E terms, it's an arcane defender or arcane striker (depending on which way you take the Eidolon).

 

[GlassJaw]

As opposed to the druid, who get casting in heavier armor, a pet that's as tough as a fighter, full casting with better spells than a bard, plus spontaneous summon nature's ally?

Using the druid as a baseline for class design is not a good place to start.

The druid is the most broken core class (by quite a lot actually).

 

[Gorbacz]

Well, with the Wildshape nerf the PF druid is much more in line with other classes now.

 

[Xendria]

I think if you limit the Summon Monster SLA it would be fine. Either returning the duration to 1 round/level or limiting the amount of monsters you can control at once.

The Eidolon is far less powerful than a fighter. Maybe in damage soaking it can compete, but it's touch AC would be ridiculously low. Weapon Training, Armor Training, and Feats put fighters over Eidolons in both versatility as well as strength.

I do have to agree with at least reducing the armor proficiency or hit die. At least one needs to be lowered if not both.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Also

The summoner class as presented changes the game significantly even for nonsummoners, because multiple spells are available for item creation at a lower level than they were in the past. For example, it will be possible to create a Wand of Haste far cheaper now, since Haste is a 2nd level spell. Likewise, a potion of Dimension Door will be possible.

Ken

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

with regards to the eidolon being weaker than the fighter, are you sure? A level 1 eidolon has 2HD and 2d10 HP, plus 3 points to buy stuff with, +2 BAB, and I am guessing a feat. I'll admit that I haven't yet statted one out, but it looks like it would be better than what the 1st level fighter gets.

Ken

 

[GlassJaw]

Well, with the Wildshape nerf the PF druid is much more in line with other classes now.

The Eidolon is far less powerful than a fighter.

The problem with "permanent", extra allies is the additional actions per round. That is HUGELY powerful, much moreso than wild shape for example.

Same goes for the Leadership feat.

The increase in power needed for a single combatant to overcome multiple opponents is essentially x4. (check out the work done by Lanchester with regards to mathematical combat modeling)

Create a Summoner with the Leadership feat and throw around some mass buff spells like Haste and watch the carnage. It will be fun for exactly one person at the table.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

leadership feat

Why do we have to bring the Leadership feat into this? Everyone knows that feat is broken.

 

[Mark Chance]

Create a Summoner with the Leadership feat and throw around some mass buff spells like Haste and watch the carnage. It will be fun for exactly one person at the table.

You means it's not fun to sit around while one player cycles his way through six or more actions in the hopes that I'll get the chance for my two? Huh. Who'da thunk it?



So far I've been generally impressed with most of what I've seen for Pathfinder. The Summoner, however, marks that PF rarity: something I would not use without major revision.