PRPG Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Summoner and Witch

[Zurai]

Using the druid as a baseline for class design is not a good place to start.

The druid is the most broken core class (by quite a lot actually).

Have you played a Pathfinder druid? I'm going to assume "no", from this response. I'd guess you havn't even looked at one. Wildshape is a pale shadow of its former glory, and spellcasting in general is less powerful than it is in 3.5.

Not to say that Druids aren't still on the top tier of classes, as any full spellcaster is going to be in any 3.0 derivative system, but it's not broken. Not any more. And, given that it isn't broken, the fact that it compares favorably to the Summoner implies that maybe the Summoner isn't broken, either.

 

[Banshee16]

Force Reincarnate is a save or die (didn't think one would see them in Pathfinder). Sure they get revived, but in a new body.

What's the purpose of Forced Reincarnate? Is it to sort of be a torturous transformation spell whose results can never be dispelled? Sort of like a Polymorph but with Instant instead of Permanent duration?

It comes to mind that it effectively makes a witch immortal....or, at least, never ending age. Sure, for 70 years you might be a male human, then for the next 50 years you're a male orce, and then then next 600 years you're a female elf...but you're effectively going to be around for a long, long time, unless you're killed.

Banshee

 

[Skeld]

With regard to the power level on the Summoner (and the Witch, Cavalier, or Oracle for that matter): Paizo's method for playtest during the Alpha and Beta phases for the Core rules was to amp up the classes considerably, then pull them back in as the playtest moved forward. Given how they conducted their Core playtest, I would be surprised if these classes aren't toned down some (and some more than others) by the time the APG hits shelves.

-Skeld

 

[GlassJaw]

Have you played a Pathfinder druid? I'm going to assume "no", from this response. I'd guess you havn't even looked at one. Wildshape is a pale shadow of its former glory, and spellcasting in general is less powerful than it is in 3.5.

Of course I have.

Spellcasting and wild shape have nothing to do with the economy of actions. Actions are the most precious commodity in 3ed, bar none.

Introducing anything that grants a player additional actions - above and beyond the other players at the table - needs to be done with extreme care.

That, in addition to decent fighting ability, spellcasting, and wild shape, is what makes the druid so powerful. And as I mentioned before, the Leadership feat.

 

[Chronologist]

I understand that having a Cohort, Thrall, of summoned creature gives a character more actions, but I don't think it slows down combat too much for other characters. If you know your cohort/summon's stats well, you can run their actions pretty quickly.

I played a thrallherd for a long time and my thrall had several attacks (bite, two claws, tail attack, possible rend), yet combat ran really smoothly anyway. Honestly more time was spent choosing what power to manifest than what my Thrall would do that round.

I do agree that the Summoner is a little too strong, but controlling two sets of actions isn't a problem IMHO. I'd recommend limiting the Eidolon to a small number of attacks each round (say, getting possible bite/claw/tail attacks, but losing all the iterative attacks from a high base attack bonus).

 

[Starbuck_II]

I do agree that the Summoner is a little too strong, but controlling two sets of actions isn't a problem IMHO. I'd recommend limiting the Eidolon to a small number of attacks each round (say, getting possible bite/claw/tail attacks, but losing all the iterative attacks from a high base attack bonus).

Unless you give the Bipedal form a weapon: they won't have iterative attacks from high BAB.
Since natural attacks never do.

 

[EroGaki]

The Summoner is cool, for the most part

I think that the classes hit die and BAB should be scaled down to match that or the wizard/sorcerer. Having said that, I think the rest is fine. I like the increased duration of summon monster spells; one of the largest complaints I have with the duration is that it leaves little time to do anything else with it. A summoner lives and dies by his summon monster spells; his spell list is extremely limited, more so than a sorcerer. He has less options, being restricted to 6th level spells, and possesses a smaller number of spell slots in which to cast the few he does know. The summon monster spell offers greatly needed versatility; it has to last longer than the standard few rounds for the class to function outside of battle. Otherwise, the summoner would be nothing more than a supremely limited spontaneous caster.

As for the problem of the summoner spamming his abilities and hogging all the glory, I doubt it would be much of an issue. Seriously, I don't believe that the summoner has the resources to blow all of his summon monsters at once, not unless its a major battle, and even then it's a non-issue; summon monster was nerfed like most other spells in Pathfinder, and frankly, most most of the summons will pop in the face of a moderate threat.

I'm fine with the eidolon. I wish animal companions were more customizable and versatile. I hope people give the class, and the Witch as well, an honest go before trying to beat it to death with the nerf bat. I know I will.

 

[Banshee16]

Of course I have.

Spellcasting and wild shape have nothing to do with the economy of actions. Actions are the most precious commodity in 3ed, bar none.

Introducing anything that grants a player additional actions - above and beyond the other players at the table - needs to be done with extreme care.

That, in addition to decent fighting ability, spellcasting, and wild shape, is what makes the druid so powerful. And as I mentioned before, the Leadership feat.

I think the idea that actions are the most valuable commodity is only of limited correctness. The idea has merit....the problem is that it has to be tied to the caveat that any extra actions you can take have to be of sufficient effectiveness at your character level to really matter.

A lvl 12 Wizard (Conjurer) using Summon Monster I to summon a 1 HD monster with a +1 BAB, and throwing that monster against a CR 12 opponent, is really no more powerful than the lvl 12 Wizard (Evoker) who decides to throw a magic missile....in fact, he's *less* powerful....that magic missile will do 5d4+1 dmg, no save, whereas summoning the 1 HD monster took up the Conjurer's action, and created a monster who might have a 5% chance of hitting (on a 20).

The extra action caused by the summoned monster really won't do much at that level.

This is an extreme example, I understand.....that Conjurer will likely have Summon Monster VI spell, which can bring a more powerful monster....but I think showing the lower level monster to illustrate the concept is valid.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

I think that the classes hit die and BAB should be scaled down to match that or the wizard/sorcerer. Having said that, I think the rest is fine. I like the increased duration of summon monster spells; one of the largest complaints I have with the duration is that it leaves little time to do anything else with it. A summoner lives and dies by his summon monster spells; his spell list is extremely limited, more so than a sorcerer. He has less options, being restricted to 6th level spells, and possesses a smaller number of spell slots in which to cast the few he does know. The summon monster spell offers greatly needed versatility; it has to last longer than the standard few rounds for the class to function outside of battle. Otherwise, the summoner would be nothing more than a supremely limited spontaneous caster.

As for the problem of the summoner spamming his abilities and hogging all the glory, I doubt it would be much of an issue. Seriously, I don't believe that the summoner has the resources to blow all of his summon monsters at once, not unless its a major battle, and even then it's a non-issue; summon monster was nerfed like most other spells in Pathfinder, and frankly, most most of the summons will pop in the face of a moderate threat.

I'm fine with the eidolon. I wish animal companions were more customizable and versatile. I hope people give the class, and the Witch as well, an honest go before trying to beat it to death with the nerf bat. I know I will.

I'll point out that with a maximum spell level of 6, the most powerful spells he'll have at lvl 20 are Summon Monster VI. The creatures brought by that spell will not last long at all against a CR 20 threat.

Banshee

 

[Reneshat]

The Summoner spell list isn't directly comparable to the Sorcerer/Wizard list. Summoners have Summon Monster IX as a 6th level spell. They also get their SLA Summon Monster spells.