Orb spells vs anti-magic?

[NewJeffCT]

Would they work? You're conjuring a small orb that requires a ranged touch attack to hit. Does the fact that it is created outside the Anti-Magic Field mean you can still use it with the same effect, or is it still null & void? Similarly, the psionic power Crystal Shard vs an AMF? I believe the various Wall spells (Wall of Stone, Wall of Ectoplasm) can stop somebody within an AMF, as they are conjured and put into being by the casting/manifesting of the power.

I know summoned creatures cannot enter an AMF, but a golem can, as can a called creature.

The reason I ask is this line from the SRD: (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

Thanks

 

[FEADIN]

A great error to create magic which is not magical in the end.....
You have the answer, the created orb is no longer magical, very strange in the case of orb of force a well known non magical "energy"

 

[Runestar]

Believe me when I say this was a very hotly debated topic some time back on the gleemax forums, what with orbs technically being an instantaneous conjuration spell and all.

Rules compendium has this very ambiguously worded section about an instantaneous spell being suppressed and cancelled if its entire area of effect falls within an AMF. Not sure what to make of it though.

I would say the AMF blocks out the orb, if only because a non-magical orb derived from a clearly magical effect irritates me to no end.

 

[Jhaelen]

Hmm, I'd have to reread the section on antimagic in the Rules Compendium, but without looking it up I would probably have ruled it didn't work. Now, obviously this is ruled by gut feeling, not by RAW.
What do those orbs consist of? Pure energy? If so, what's holding them together, if not magic?
Can you use the spell to conjure an orb and keep it, put it in your pocket and lob it at an enemy at a later time? - I don't think so.

I think this is yet another indicator that the orb spells don't make a lot of sense.

The crystal shard power is more difficult (at least if you're using the Complete Psion rules update stating it's doing slashing damage).
Do those shards persist after the attack, i.e. is the floor covered with them, so you could sweep them up and put them in a bag? - Possibly.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Would they work? You're conjuring a small orb that requires a ranged touch attack to hit. Does the fact that it is created outside the Anti-Magic Field mean you can still use it with the same effect, or is it still null & void? Similarly, the psionic power Crystal Shard vs an AMF? I believe the various Wall spells (Wall of Stone, Wall of Ectoplasm) can stop somebody within an AMF, as they are conjured and put into being by the casting/manifesting of the power.

I know summoned creatures cannot enter an AMF, but a golem can, as can a called creature.

The reason I ask is this line from the SRD: (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

Thanks

RAW (rules as written) say that they do indeed work.
AMF doesn't block line if effect/sight (Rules Encyclopedia makes this clear).
Acid Splash is core example.
But yes, Orbs do work.

Golems are creatures: they sustained by the elemerntal spirit stolen and placed within them not magic after creation.
Called creatures are actually there no magic rewuired to sustain them.
Summoned Creatures are magical imitations of real thing (which is why real thing isn't dead when summon is killed). They are entirely dependent on magic to be there.

Crystal Shard works as it is real crystal: although, they should be unable to hold structrure after 6 seconds to explain why they can only be used once.

 

[Deset Gled]

As others have noted, by the SRD rules (I can't comment on the Rules Compendium) the orbs penetrate the AMF. The text is found in the spell entry for AMF: "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result." Since the orbs are instantaneous conjurations, they work (as long as they are cast from outside the AMF).

The orb spells really have no business being conjuration spells in the first place. If properly designed, they would be evocations.

 

[NewJeffCT]

RAW (rules as written) say that they do indeed work.
AMF doesn't block line if effect/sight (Rules Encyclopedia makes this clear).
Acid Splash is core example.
But yes, Orbs do work.

Golems are creatures: they sustained by the elemerntal spirit stolen and placed within them not magic after creation.
Called creatures are actually there no magic rewuired to sustain them.
Summoned Creatures are magical imitations of real thing (which is why real thing isn't dead when summon is killed). They are entirely dependent on magic to be there.

Crystal Shard works as it is real crystal: although, they should be unable to hold structrure after 6 seconds to explain why they can only be used once.

Thanks Starbuck - that was extremely helpful. I had asked because one of the PC's allies cast AMF and used it pretty effectively to start the combat - the evil psion was caught within the AMF and nearly pummeled to death because he had no options within the AMF other than running away & sucking up the AoOs as he ran away: He ended up prone as well, so got one AoO when he stood up as a move action, and then using his standard action to move out of the AMF, and then a swift action to quicken dimension door and move out of charge range of the AMF'd cleric/paladin.

However, now that he is out of the AMF, he can Crystal Shard the Cleric/Paladin, or the rakshasa sorcerer can hit the C/P with an Orb spell. Or, they could just fly above the range of the AMF and relieve themselves on her...

 

[NewJeffCT]

As others have noted, by the SRD rules (I can't comment on the Rules Compendium) the orbs penetrate the AMF. The text is found in the spell entry for AMF: "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result." Since the orbs are instantaneous conjurations, they work (as long as they are cast from outside the AMF).

The orb spells really have no business being conjuration spells in the first place. If properly designed, they would be evocations.

True, they seem more in line with evocations, and in looking at higher level SRD evocations, the evocation school seems a bit weak... the party psion in my group would laugh at meteor swarm, as he can manifest Energy Adaptation as an immediate action and get fire resistance 30 and basically negate all the non-bludgeoning damage.

 

[billd91]

The language for antimagic field was designed before the orbs came along so I think, when it was written, it didn't anticipate letting in a direct magical attack of that nature. Maybe the orbs were shifted from evocation to conjuration when Tome and Blood got worked over into Complete Arcane specifically for that sort of purpose. But I think it was a bad idea, leading to far too many arguments about the appropriate design of orb spells.
I notice also that the Rules Compendium makes no mention of direct attack conjuration spells, something that would have made for an excellent clarification of the issue.

 

[NewJeffCT]

The language for antimagic field was designed before the orbs came along so I think, when it was written, it didn't anticipate letting in a direct magical attack of that nature. Maybe the orbs were shifted from evocation to conjuration when Tome and Blood got worked over into Complete Arcane specifically for that sort of purpose. But I think it was a bad idea, leading to far too many arguments about the appropriate design of orb spells.
I notice also that the Rules Compendium makes no mention of direct attack conjuration spells, something that would have made for an excellent clarification of the issue.

I understand where you are coming from, but there were spells like Acid Splash and Acid Arrow before Tome & Blood, which are also instantaneous conjurations.