July Errata is up

[Nifft]

Now I wonder why they left the Magic Missile crit text in the Staff of Missile Mastery, since you can no longer crit with one...

They forgot to delete that line, according to a tweet.

Cheers, -- N

 

[keterys]

Now I wonder why they left the Magic Missile crit text in the Staff of Missile Mastery, since you can no longer crit with one...

There are a lot of moving parts in these things, and not a lot of time involved between review and posting. I do have to say... does it matter? If you never crit with magic missile, it never comes up, and it's one less line to edit. I blame me for distracting Greg, though, so I encourage you to blame me too. My blame quotient for the month is low, and it's less fun if WotC gets blamed.

 

[Dan'L]

I'm confused by the errata to Eruption of Steel.

It seems that now it is not two separate attack rolls during the primary attack, but only attack roll that uses both weapons. How do you calculate the attack roll?

Do you get to add weapon proficiency and enhancement bonuses from both weapons to the single attack roll, or only from one of them, or only the best of both?

I'm leaning toward the last, as I think this would count as "typed" bonuses not stacking. So, if you were attacking with a +5 hammer and a +4 longsword, you'd get to add +8 to the attack roll: +5 enhancement from the hammer, +3 proficiency from the longsword?

-Dan'L

 

[kerbarian]

I like your number crunching, but saying it does less damage at level 30 is not the same thing as saying that it's flatly "weaker". The new MM clearly does more damage at level 1, and that's just as valid a case as level 30. (Probably more so, since I'm guessing there are many, many more players in heroic tier than epic).

For another data point, my LFR Wizard at 8th level had (until this update) a Magic Missile at +16 vs. Reflex for 2d4 + 16 damage [1]. Against a typical Reflex of 20 for a level 8 monster, that's an average (with crits) of 18.5 damage. The new MM hits for 11, or 41% less.

Magic Missile wasn't a great at-will, but it was useful when you needed the extra range, and it could be boosted as an MBA in ways other powers couldn't. Now my wizard will be looking for something else as his 3rd at-will. In another class it might have been worth keeping as an anti-minion power, but enlarged Winged Horde is vastly superior at that job.

[1] Hit is +4 half level, +6 Int, +3 implement, +1 expertise, +1 superior implement, +1 eagle eye goggles. Damage is +6 Int, +3 implement, +3 dual implement spellcaster, +2 bracers of the perfect shot, +1 siberys shard of the mage, +1 weapon focus.

 

[cdrcjsn]

Level 30 Wizard, pre-Errata MM. 30 Intelligence, +6 Deadly Staff of Ruin, +6 off-hand Implement and Dual Implement Spellcaster, Weapon Focus (Staff): 4d4+34 damage = ~44 damage = ~22 average damage.

Level 30 Wizard, new MM. 30 Intelligence, +6 Staff of Missile Mastery: 26 damage.

So overall, assuming you hit half the time, the power hasn't taken a huge nerf. There are downsides - if you hit more often, then the previous version obviously is better. Much more relevant - you can't crit with the new one. That's pretty big.

You forgot that bonuses to hit (expertise, combat advantage, leader bonuses, etc) also add to average damage per round for the old version. Also leader bonus to damage (as well as a Syberis Shard of the Mage) is also pretty common at higher levels and don't apply to the new MM. And if you're using a +6 staff of MM, that means that you likely don't have a +6 Staff of Ruin that actually helps all of your other powers.

 

[deadsmurf]

I like the idea of the new magic missile - but I kinda wish it was 1d4 + 1 damage, for the full classic spell model.

In fact If someone is playing a wizard in my game they can have that instead of just 2 flat damage. Only increases average damage by 1.5, so not too bad. Will have to keep the "no bonuses to damage rolls" part though, to keep it fair.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm kinda torn, overall, about making MM automatic damage. On one hand, it is THE classic wizard spell, and has always worked this way.

Not always... only from AD&D (and possibly BD&D?) onwards.

In OD&D magic missile fired a +1 magic arrow that did 1d6+1 damage or something similar. It wasn't very popular...

 

[Plane Sailing]

Plus crits. Crits are actually rather important, given how many things key off of them at Epic level.

Crits are not just nice for the extra damage, they can grant things like recovering your Encounter powers and spending Surges.

With a Staff of Ruin, that's a 10% chance for max damage (50) + 6d10 + any other nastiness that you add to a crit (+1d10 for a feat, +1d10 for a war ring).

Cheers, -- N

If I was still playing my 12th level staff wizard, I'd be pretty put out by this errata on magic missile - it was a great mainstay spell, his basic damage was (from memory) something like +6 level, +6 Int, +3 staff of ruin, armbands than improve basic ranged damage +4, for a total of 2d4+22 damage normally, and on a crit he did 3d10+30 damage. Those were mighty times, and I'd hate to swap it for a relatively paltry effect damage.

Then again, we only ever played with PHB1 and there may have been lots of whizzy things that appeared later on for wizards...

 

[Verision]

Can I say ****s and giggles?

My problem with the new magic missile is the following:

I can see exactly what my group will do with this. The first time my group comes up against a group of mostly melee monsters, the wizard will cast Evard's Black Tentacles and the rest of the PCs will kill off any ranged enemies. Next, the PCs will sit down and have a cup of tea while the wizard spends the next X number of rounds sustaining the Tentacles and whittling down, and eventually killing, the monsters with magic missile.

Is this optimal? Not by a long shot. Is it going to happen in my game? Yes, it definitely will, even if it only for ****s and giggles.

 

[eamon]

My problem with the new magic missile is the following:

I can see exactly what my group will do with this. The first time my group comes up against a group of mostly melee monsters, the wizard will cast Evard's Black Tentacles and the rest of the PCs will kill off any ranged enemies. Next, the PCs will sit down and have a cup of tea while the wizard spends the next X number of rounds sustaining the Tentacles and whittling down, and eventually killing, the monsters with magic missile.

Is this optimal? Not by a long shot. Is it going to happen in my game? Yes, it definitely will, even if it only for ****s and giggles.

Evard's tentacles were errata'd in may; the immobilizing effect is merely save-ends now - and anyhow, how is this impossible with any other ranged attack? As long as you deal damage on average, you can do this; no need for effect damage.

I also think the new MM is too weak, particularly as levels rise. It shouldn't be a discussion about whether the old one or the new one is better, it should be competitive with an optimized ranged basic weapon attack - i.e. much better than it was - and it shouldn't require heavy feat or item investment that competes with all your other powers to be reasonable (i.e. the staff or wand specifically for MM are neat, but they shouldn't be a basic assumption since they have a high opportunity cost.)

Much better: 2+Int modifier +enh modifier; 2 missiles in paragon; 3 missiles in epic (or something like that - the epic version at least sounds too strong, but that kind of approach is more traditional anyhow).

One neat thing about the new MM is that it doesn't require an attack roll - so situationally that's great (trying to hit an invisible foe, usage when you're blinded, that kind of thing.) I'm not picking it for my wizard, but it might be neat for some human wizards, I guess. Also nice for hybrids, by the way.