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Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

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Maggan

Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
I will admit that I don't know the programmers market to me, but that seems very high.

Yeah, maybe. Some contractors I work with charge 150 dollars an hour. If I hire them instead of just contracting them, I pay them maybe half, but have to add taxes and insurance and social benefits, so the cost goes up.

It aint cheap running a web agency here in Sweden. :D

/M
 

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Maggan

Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
It's not hard to believe the news, despite me finding it just a tad inflammatory on Lisa's part. I mean it's exciting and they should be proud of their quality products, but being vocal with your community is one thing and being vocal with sales, idk, seems a little beneath Paizo.

It's funny, when WotC announced crazy sales of 4e in the beginning, I remember Erik Mona being a bit miffed that WotC were slapping their own backs and being self-congratulatory.

After that, I've seen Paizo tout it's horn quite a bit. But then again, if they don't do it, no one else will do it for them! Apart from the fans, of course, and 3rd party publishers, and game store owners, and ... :D

/M
 

Summer-Knight925

First Post
Sometimes I have bad dreams about WotC buying up Paizo, lock, stock, and barrel, then rereleasing Pathfinder as 5e with new art and tieflings and dragonborn as core races.

What about Paizo buying the rights to D&D and publishing their own D&D?

is that a nightmare for you aswell?

(actually question, not a remark, I do fear 4e and WoTc these days)
 

TirionAnthion

First Post
Congrats

Congratulations to Paizo on the success of the Pathfinder line. They have produced a quality, will written product that consistently does well in the market. I enjoy the Adventure Paths immensely and always look forward to the next one.

As a RPG Retailer I interact with the RPG customer base on a daily basis. I have my own opinions on the state of gaming based on my experiences. As Lisa points out in her post, individual retailers may have different experiences from place to place.

In the interest of full disclosure, I play 4E. I have played 4E since launch. My 3.5 game ended about a year before 4E released and I had no desire to play 3.5 any longer. I was one of those people who liked the idea of 4E fixing the problems of 3.5 and so the WotC marketing plan that offended so many others was actually something that I liked. I have played D&D since 1983 and have played every addition, yet the slaughtering of the sacred cows of D&D did not bother me. I am not exactly sure why.

While I play 4E, I do buy Adventure Path modules for conversion to 4E. I like the stories in the modules and they are well written and fun to read. They are much more entertaining to read than 4E modules and I find the conversion process very simple.

In my store, I have noticed some interesting things about the gaming habits of my customer's. The core player base for Pathfinder is very dedicated to the game. That said, they have some interesting quirks. Many of them have been gaming for years and their groups can be very insular. It can sometimes be difficult for new players to join their games as outsiders are not always welcome.

That said, we do have many excellent Pathfinder players who are always willing to teach new players and expand the hobby. They have an enthusiasm for the game that is infectious.

We have several different Pathfinder groups at our store that meet on a regular basis. They operate independently of the store. This means that they control when events are held and who can play. They have a sign up system through a web page for the group and they are strict on min/max numbers of players allowed at a table. This leads to walk ins sometimes being turned away. This makes it hard to recommend those games to new players as I cannot guarantee them a spot.

In contrast to that, I run the 4E events at the store and do my best to insure that no one is turned away. I am much more confident about recommending my games as I know people will be able to play. This has really spurred sales of 4E at my store as we get alot of new blood into the game.

I also have many customers who played D&D 10, 20 or 30 years ago who want to get back into the hobby, often with their children. These people want to play D&D. They don't care about addition wars or the OGl or any of the politics behind the game. They want to play a game called D&D, not Pathfinder. For them it is the nostalgia of playing D&D that factors heavily into the experience. They want to play D&D and that means 4E, or one of the OOP D&D products we have on our shelves.

I do have a couple of Pathfinder players who will go so far as to interrupt me when I am talking to customers about 4E and say things like:

"If you want to play the game that most people think is really D&D then you need to play Pathfinder."

or

"4E is ok if you just want a to play a boardgame and not really roleplay."

Besides being rude to both me and the customer, it is bad for the hobby in general. Especially when the customer is a casual gamer looking to get back into the hobby with their kids. They don't care about the politics of the game, they just want to play D&D. I know that these Pathfinder players are just being passionate about the game they love, but in the end they do more harm than good for the hobby, IMO.

Also I have noticed that my Pathfinder regulars often ask me if Pathfinder outsells D&D 4E. My D&D 4E regulars do not ask me about sales.

Sorry if I seem to ramble a little here. I just thought I would throw out some observations from someone who deals with customers for Pathfinder and D&D on a regular basis. Ultimately, both games sell well for us and we have many people playing the games which is good for the hobby as a whole. Things are much better that they were in 2008. I once had to ask a customer to leave the store because they were standing next to an in store game of 4E and kept laughing and commenting about how horrible the game was. Nobody, regardless of edition or game, should have to run a game with someone standing over their shoulder making snide remarks about the game they are playing.
 

Deuce Traveler

Adventurer
I can only talk about my own experiences, but I asked my local RPG/Comic Book store to order a Pathfinder book. He did, but he also ordered several other rule and campaign books with the same order. Then he put all the books on the shelf after giving me a call. I showed up 3 days later and purchased my first rulebook for Pathfinder. It was the only Pathfinder rulebook left on the shelf, and one of the few Pathfinder books I saw at all. The owner said he had sold out of three other such books and five other Pathfinder books he had ordered within the time between calling me and I picking it up.
 

kitsune9

Adventurer
The other thing that continues to concern me about this whole digital push is that what happens if WotC dies tomorrow and stops offering DDI? At least when the CB was offline I could still make up to date characters, but with the CB as it is now and with no books, I'd basically have to give up 4e altogether. They're not exactly creating any sort of lasting legacy without physical magazines and their strategy of undermining their own physical products with digital offerings.

I agree with this post.
 

Dannager

First Post
I agree with this post.

Even if WotC did pull the plug on all the online 4e content, we'd know in advance it was happening. Someone will throw together a dump of the most complete Compendium data and it'll show up somewhere online.

Mark my words: you will be able to get ahold of all of 4e's rules content online even if WotC shuts down their own 4e support.

You really don't have anything to fear, except perhaps losing access to the Character Builder.
 

S'mon

Legend
Pathfinder fan here and I have to agree with you. 4e is an established game in the middle of its run. Pathfinder is a newer game that has an expanding fanbase. If it *wasn't* selling more, there would be something seriously wrong. It doesn't say anything about the worth of either company; Pathfinder is simply at a point where they should be making more money than WotC.

4e D&D release: 2008.
Pathfinder release: 2009.

I'm not seeing it. They're both pretty young games.
 

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