D&D 4E What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?

[nnms]

For some it's jarring- especially if the "scene in their head" doesn't quite match the one on the board. (And I don't know about you, but minis almost never perfectly match what I'm seeing in my head as to how characters look...)

In a way it's kind of like reading a book for one chapter, then popping in the DVD for the next, then going back to the book.

This doesn't make it bad, or wrong, nor is it an issue everyone has.

This is a pretty good summary of the issue.

It's more than just pause times and jarring transitions. It's also about the interplay between the fiction and the rules and the act of description. During exploration play and conversation, it's often people describing things, using mechanics and accepting new things as part of the shared fiction.

When combat starts, you have the pause time you mentioned, and then also the relationship between description, the rules and the shared fiction changes as well. People can move by picking up their pawn and counting out the squares, inform everyone of what power they are using as a standard action and roll the dice. This can be done without description and part or all of it usually is (in my experience).

And even when it is accompanied by description, the description doesn't inform how you use the system like it does when you're in other game modes. It's just colour to help bring the actions to life. There's nothing wrong with it, other than perhaps slowing down combat in some cases.

In the non-combat game modes, what you describe informs how you use the system. Without description, the game doesn't function whatsoever. In the combat game mode, how you use the system informs what you describe, if you describe anything at all. Without description, the game functions just fine. Some even prefer low (or no) description as it can slow things down.

I think your analogy of reading one chapter and then watching a DVD episode of the next is apt. Neither medium is inherently superior, just different.

 

[nnms]

He could be burned out on the game period. I wouldn't short change the fact that the person might be tired of 4th edition and wants something new. If he is genuinely tired of 4th edition and nothing else then taking a break isn't going to change that.

Putting the blame on the person or dismissing it as burnout isn't always the case. If someone says they are tired of RPG's in general then that sounds more like burnout period.

I think I am getting done with the system. I know it's not GMing in general because I run other games that I totally enjoy and find invigorating rather than draining.

I think that all the things that I used to see as features now appearing as downsides is definitely a sign that I'm either bored with it or that my tastes have changed.

Do I think 4E is a bad game? Nope. Do I think it has some features that some will find to be weaknesses? Definitely. Am I going to be trying other games to see if I can't find one with features I see as strengths for the kind of game I want to run? Definitely.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I think I am getting done with the system. I know it's not GMing in general because I run other games that I totally enjoy and find invigorating rather than draining.

I think that all the things that I used to see as features now appearing as downsides is definitely a sign that I'm either bored with it or that my tastes have changed.

Do I think 4E is a bad game? Nope. Do I think it has some features that some will find to be weaknesses? Definitely. Am I going to be trying other games to see if I can't find one with features I see as strengths for the kind of game I want to run? Definitely.

I think the problem with some people is the fact that they don't understand why anyone would be tired of, or not like a game that is balanced like 4th edition.

Balance is great, but it's not the only thing when it comes to a game.

Yeah I can see that you are just burned out on 4th edition and not RPG's in general. 4th edition is a very repetitive game and it does get boring really quick to DM as well as play.

Maybe 5th edition will bring you what you need to feel invigorated again.

 

[Dannager]

Yeah I can see that you are just burned out on 4th edition and not RPG's in general. 4th edition is a very repetitive game and it does get boring really quick to DM as well as play.

4th Edition is, as with all RPGs, as boring or exciting as the DM and players choose to make it. 4e's mechanics are some of the most engaging ever published for a tabletop system. If you can't manage to make the game exciting, it says more about you as a DM or player than it will ever say about the system.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

4th Edition is, as with all RPGs, as boring or exciting as the DM and players choose to make it. 4e's mechanics are some of the most engaging ever published for a tabletop system. If you can't manage to make the game exciting, it says more about you as a DM or player than it will ever say about the system.

Oh here we go with placing the blame the on the person and not the system.

 

[FireLance]

4th Edition is, as with all RPGs, as boring or exciting as the DM and players choose to make it. 4e's mechanics are some of the most engaging ever published for a tabletop system. If you can't manage to make the game exciting, it says more about you as a DM or player than it will ever say about the system.

I don't think it's useful to point fingers at either the players or the system. That way lies endless arguments and bad feelings. The way I see it, some systems suit some players while others don't, and that's all there is to it.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I don't think it's useful to point fingers at either the players or the system. That way lies endless arguments and bad feelings. The way I see it, some systems suit some players while others don't, and that's all there is to it.

Exactly!! To make a long and complicated story short it all depends on ratio. If more people find that they don't want to continue playing the system and stop buying products then the system will change because in the end it all boils down to business.

 

[nnms]

4th Edition is, as with all RPGs, as boring or exciting as the DM and players choose to make it. 4e's mechanics are some of the most engaging ever published for a tabletop system. If you can't manage to make the game exciting, it says more about you as a DM or player than it will ever say about the system.

LOL!

I've made the game incredibly exciting. My players are having a blast with it. I have had a blast with it. But the cracks are starting to show.

I've done my share of defending 4E against its detractors, but I've never seen the need to blaming the gaming skills of those who don't like it. I think that doing so is a sign of weak reasoning.

 

[nnms]

I think the problem with some people is the fact that they don't understand why anyone would be tired of, or not like a game that is balanced like 4th edition.

Balance is great, but it's not the only thing when it comes to a game.

I'm beginning to see that more and more. I think balance in terms of the participants able to contribute to the shared story is far more important than combat balance.

Yeah I can see that you are just burned out on 4th edition and not RPG's in general. 4th edition is a very repetitive game and it does get boring really quick to DM as well as play.

Maybe 5th edition will bring you what you need to feel invigorated again.

I shudder at the idea of a new edition so soon. Essentials was supposed to be an evergreen product line to keep D&D 4E in publication for the foreseeable future. The idea of a new bunch of core books to buy again sounds terrible.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I'm beginning to see that more and more. I think balance in terms of the participants able to contribute to the shared story is far more important than combat balance.



I shudder at the idea of a new edition so soon. Essentials was supposed to be an evergreen product line to keep D&D 4E in publication for the foreseeable future. The idea of a new bunch of core books to buy again sounds terrible.

I'm going to go out on a limb here but I'm guessing it's the overall system that you find burns you out.

Now no matter how much tweaking you do, the overall system is going to be the same and if you end up needing to change that in order to ignite that spark of interest again then you are essentially creating a new system and might as well produce 5th edition.

If I am right, then could you see 4th edition being dragged out for another 3 or 4 years? Now if the ratio of is higher with regards to people liking it and giving Wizards their money then we will just have to sit back and wait for the next edition to come around, but if it's not bringing in the numbers then it may call for a complete change.

If your dog does a poo on the floor and instead of covering it up you just spray air freshener then you aren't really taking care of the problem, you are just trying to cover it up without anyone noticing. That's why I hope Wizards realizes that covering it up by giving us certain amounts of content isn't going to fix the problem.