Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

[MacMathan]

Keeping with the oWoD/nWoD theme, what other games went through a big fall off after changes?

I am not sure if Shadowrun qualifies as I have not played in the recent era.

There seems to be some discontent with the new WHFRP but I have no experience with the system or the player base numbers.

What else?

 

[Dannager]

Hmmm... the fact that I don't see it is immaterial but the fact that you do isn't. How nice for you.

Again, you have missed the point.

If Ford sells a new SUV, and a year later it turns out that said SUV has a chance of flipping over when driven off-road, the fact that you don't drive off-road and thus haven't noticed the problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Keeping in mind, of course, that a SUV flipping over is mutually agreed by all sane people to be an actual problem.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Again, you have missed the point.

If Ford sells a new SUV, and a year later it turns out that said SUV has a chance of flipping over when driven off-road, the fact that you don't drive off-road and thus haven't noticed the problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

I really don't think its an apt comparison. This is an issue that clearly boils down to preference and play style. Nobody wants their suv to flip, but lots of people want optimized builds or wizards that get pretty uber over the course of a campaign. If people play the game and arent troubled by the same issues as you, it doesn't mean they just arent getting it, it means they want different things from it than you. Obviously the balance focus of 4e works for some but doesn't work for others. Just not seeing any evidence that this is a universally desirable design principle as you seem to suggest.

 

[Nagol]

Keeping with the oWoD/nWoD theme, what other games went other games went through a big fall off after changes?

I am not sure if Shadowrun qualifies as I have not played in the recent era.

There seems to be some discontent with the new WHFRP but I have no experience with the system or the player base numbers.

What else?

At one point, Hero Games tried to move away from their traditional system and adopt Fuzion. The players did not follow.

 

[prosfilaes]

If Ford sells a new SUV, and a year later it turns out that said SUV has a chance of flipping over when driven off-road, the fact that you don't drive off-road and thus haven't noticed the problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Of course there's a chance of flipping over when driven off-road; any vehicle without gravitonic stabilizers will do that on a sufficiently high grade.

Let's take another problem of that SUV; it doesn't stand up to small arms fire. That's a real problem, and for many people in the world, that's a deal-stopper. But most people don't care; they continue to buy cars that can't stand up to small arms fire. Just because a problem exists, doesn't mean that every consumer is willing to accept the cost of fixing it.

 

[IronWolf]

If Ford sells a new SUV, and a year later it turns out that said SUV has a chance of flipping over when driven off-road, the fact that you don't drive off-road and thus haven't noticed the problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Your analogies really do nothing but drift us further off topic and into discussions that have no bearing to RPGs.

Of course there's a chance of flipping over when driven off-road; any vehicle without gravitonic stabilizers will do that on a sufficiently high grade.

Exactly - anyone that has done any serious off-road driving know that vehicles are much more susceptible to tipping.

Let's take another problem of that SUV; it doesn't stand up to small arms fire. That's a real problem, and for many people in the world, that's a deal-stopper. But most people don't care; they continue to buy cars that can't stand up to small arms fire. Just because a problem exists, doesn't mean that every consumer is willing to accept the cost of fixing it.

And even more specifically - a vehicle not standing up to small arms fire *isn't* a problem to the majority of people - even if there are those who it does pose a problem to.

 

[MacMathan]

At one point, Hero Games tried to move away from their traditional system and adopt Fuzion. The players did not follow.

I am not familiar with either system. What do you think in the changes caused players to balk?

 

[TheUltramark]

the title of this thread: Pathfinder outselling d&D leads to two big questions for me.

1 - how would one go about finding reliable sales figures for "d&d"

2 - and this is my real question: SO?
I promise that the knowledge some other game system is outselling d&D will in NO way detract from the amount of fun I have playing d&D and have little to no impact on said fun levels for years if ever.
Yet is seems like quite a big deal to a lot of people that I enjoy "the broken game" and I cannot for the life of me figure out why, if anyone could explain it to me, I'd be appreciative, thanks

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Again, you have missed the point.

If Ford sells a new SUV, and a year later it turns out that said SUV has a chance of flipping over when driven off-road, the fact that you don't drive off-road and thus haven't noticed the problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

And how many gamers have been killed by an RPG flipping over?

This is not an SUV, and not everybody agrees where the problem is. Otherwise Pathfinder would not be doing as well.

Some folks think that there is a problem, but them thinking so does not make it so. It just means that they like a certain style of rules,, with no chance of either game flipping over and wiping out the table in a fiery wreck.

This is along the lines of arguing that a red SUV goes faster than a blue SUV, but the green ones get better mileage....

That you don't like blue SUVs does not change the fact that some folks do, or that some folks would rather be in a Beetle or a Morgan.

So, let us drop analogies - not everyone thinks that 4e's concentration on balance is needed. Not everyone agrees that the flexible nature of the OGL is necessary.

Live with it. Arguing is not going to work. Personally, I do not like 4e, telling me that it is 'fixing' the 'problems' in 3.X does not make me see those things that have been broken fixed by 4e as problems. Comparing it to an SUV does not help that argument.

So, everybody, put your boardgame playing football teams in their red SUV's and let them drive until the car flips over and kills all of them.

Call a game a game instead of arguing by use of really lame analogies....

The Auld Grump, let's say that 4e is peanut butter. If you fed it to a horse then it would look like it was talking!