Tier list for PF classes, or summary of each?

Dingo333

First Post
Here is how I have seen them played and gone through in theory

Tier 1
Druid
Wizard

Tier 2
Sorcerer
Summoner
Cleric
Oracle

Tier 3
Inquisitor
Magus
Witch
Alchemist
Bard

Tier 4
Fighter
Barbarian
Paladin
Ranger
Rouge

Tier 5
Cavalier
Gunslinger
Monk

The cleric and orcle are in tier 2 because, to me, a character who only buffs/heals is not all that interesting. They are still strong characters but the focus of their abilities detracts from their overall fun.

Tier 3 is full of guys who are mild to medium combat with spells to enhance and make up for the medium BAB. Witch is the exception as they are a full caster, they are a powerful option but not my bag in their style.

Tier 4 is still good, they are the tanks. There are fun ideas to be had with them all, but the averageness of their abilities knocks them down from Tier 4.
Consider how different a fighter with a 2 handed weapon is from another fighter with a 2 handed weapon

Tier 5 is the bad ones, cavalier is someone who has a strict code to follow and does not get much for following it. Gunslinger imo is just bad. It is slightly op, but the concept is terrible. The monk (with exception to the drunken master and zen archer archtypes) is another bad option, the 2 archtypes help but the overall class is still down here

There are archtypes that will move a class up or down, these are simply just the average considering all archtypes available. Race also has an effect on the over all power of a class, for example, a Zen archer Dwarf gets into tier 3 while a zen archer elf finds itself in tier 4
 

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StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
The cleric and orcle are in tier 2 because, to me, a character who only buffs/heals is not all that interesting.

I guess if that's all they did, this would be true.

Tier 4 is still good, they are the tanks. There are fun ideas to be had with them all, but the averageness of their abilities knocks them down from Tier 4.
Consider how different a fighter with a 2 handed weapon is from another fighter with a 2 handed weapon

Rogue is a tank?!

Tier 5 is the bad ones, cavalier is someone who has a strict code to follow and does not get much for following it. Gunslinger imo is just bad. It is slightly op, but the concept is terrible. The monk (with exception to the drunken master and zen archer archtypes) is another bad option, the 2 archtypes help but the overall class is still down here

I agree Gunslinger is overpowered and a stupid concept. Tier lists rank power, not how much you like the class, though. Drunken Master isn't enough to move monk a tier. Zen Archer might be, but just barely.

There are archtypes that will move a class up or down, these are simply just the average considering all archtypes available. Race also has an effect on the over all power of a class, for example, a Zen archer Dwarf gets into tier 3 while a zen archer elf finds itself in tier 4

Elf is a terrible, horrible choice for Zen Archer. The proficiencies are wasted, the con hurts, the int and dex do very little to help, the elven magic does squat... Dwarf is the optimal core choice (Oread is probably the best non-core and Human is decent as always). Even so, Dwarf Zen Archer is not much better than core monk, maybe a tier higher. It's still inferior to Ranger and a hell of a lot more boring. Rangers have spells, and a pet, and are skill monkeys. Zen Archers...do respectable barrages of damage round after round, and can sneak alright. I played one, it was playable and could do its job, but was boring as hell and still clearly inferior to most other classes/archetypes that weren't monks.
 

Samurai

Adventurer
As Fishbone said, anyone putting Paladin at a low rank has never seen one in PF... they are absolute monsters. And Fishbone didn't even mention one of their most powerful new abilities: Aura of Justice (gained at 11th level) = Group Smite. Yes, by spending 2 Smite uses as a free action, all nearby allies gain the Paladin's Smite bonuses for 1 minute... So, +5 or 6 to attack rolls, + Paladin's level on all damage rolls (doubled to 2x lvl vs evil dragons, outsiders, or undead) and +5 or 6 to AC against target. For the whole party!

Also, the most powerful character in our game is by far the Barbarian/Fighter. He does massive damage on every hit, and has done 600 points of damage in a single round at 11th level. Regular hits do 50-60 damage, and when he criticals, he typically does 150 points of damage. And while spellcasters can be stopped with high saves, SR, energy resistance, etc, almost nothing can stop sword damage in the amounts he does. He laughs at DR 10/-, as 40-50 damage per hit still gets through (and he gets 4 attacks per round while hasted).

The sorcerer wishes she could do damage like the Barb/Ftr...
 

TheAuldGrump

First Post
I do have to say though that you are better off playing what you like - my top three are Wizard, Paladin, and Rogue, more because of the way they feel than because of power. Rogue is a utility class - if all you look at is combat effectiveness then he make a poor showing, if you have things to do other than stick pointy things into soft things that scream and bleed then the rogue does a lot better.

Magus and Bard are the next on my list, magic using classes that support another role as well.

So, look at past experiences with the DM, but mostly, play what will be fun.

The Auld Grump
 
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Mad Hamish

First Post
As Fishbone said, anyone putting Paladin at a low rank has never seen one in PF... they are absolute monsters. And Fishbone didn't even mention one of their most powerful new abilities: Aura of Justice (gained at 11th level) = Group Smite. Yes, by spending 2 Smite uses as a free action, all nearby allies gain the Paladin's Smite bonuses for 1 minute... So, +5 or 6 to attack rolls, + Paladin's level on all damage rolls (doubled to 2x lvl vs evil dragons, outsiders, or undead) and +5 or 6 to AC against target. For the whole party!

It's partly a matter of flexibility, the Paladin, Fighter, Ranger... can hit things and do damage well (in different ways) but they can't do as much as a full progression spellcaster in other ways.

A Paladin gets good defences and can hit things hard.
There's also the point that smite is vs 1 target so good versus a big bad, not so good versus a lot of similar targets - and no use at all against anything neutral or good...
If you use Aura of Justice at 11th level that's half of your smite uses for the day.

As a comparison a fighter gets Weapon Training which gives a bonus on all hit and damage against any foes. Nowhere near as big a damage bonus as the Paladin but the fighter also doesn't need to boost charisma for the hit bonus which means he can focus more on str and has about twice the feats of a Paladin including some nice fighter only options for combat.
(It also makes power attack more effective than a non-smiting Paladin)

Also, the most powerful character in our game is by far the Barbarian/Fighter. He does massive damage on every hit, and has done 600 points of damage in a single round at 11th level. Regular hits do 50-60 damage, and when he criticals, he typically does 150 points of damage. And while spellcasters can be stopped with high saves, SR, energy resistance, etc, almost nothing can stop sword damage in the amounts he does. He laughs at DR 10/-, as 40-50 damage per hit still gets through (and he gets 4 attacks per round while hasted).

The sorcerer wishes she could do damage like the Barb/Ftr...

I'd be interested to see the Barbarian/Fighter build.
 

Walking Dad

First Post
The real utility classes from level 6+ are the spellcasters, not the rogues.

And doing much damage in combat is very nice. How does the sample barbarian/fighter handles flying or incorporeal opponents? And there are still the save or suck spells.
 

TheAuldGrump

First Post
The real utility classes from level 6+ are the spellcasters, not the rogues.
Not in my experience.

Wizards can do all sorts of wonderful things if those spells are prepared - if they have infinite time to do things then a wizard can disarm traps, open doors, etc.. But if there is a time crunch, and there should often be a time crunch, then the rogue opens the door, disarms the trap, and fakes being a cleric so he can use the wand of cure light wounds on the cleric who is now in negative hit points....

I run a lot of urban adventures, and rogues end up being some of the busiest characters around.

The Auld Grump
 

Walking Dad

First Post
You can keep slots open. And there is an arcane discovery that let you fill the slots even faster.
And use magic device is more the domain of the bard and the sorcerer, who have usually a higher charisma and the skill as class skill, too.
 

TheAuldGrump

First Post
You can keep slots open. And there is an arcane discovery that let you fill the slots even faster.
And use magic device is more the domain of the bard and the sorcerer, who have usually a higher charisma and the skill as class skill, too.
As I said - not in my experience.

Your experience obviously differs, but it is by no means universal.

More often I have seen a wizard that has knock etc. wait until after the rogue makes his attempts. For that matter, I have seen the wizard buff the rogue more often than cast knock and open the door himself.

Rogues differ, some are charismatic con men, others daring sneak thieves, and still others that are simple thugs. Most often, some mix of the options. But rogues in my game are often built with an urban setting in mind, so, again, experiences can differ.

Personally, I like playing a charismatic con man, I like banter and bluff.

The Auld Grump
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
re

Some people are giving you perceived power levels rather than actual opinions based on experience involving each class. Pathfinder is dramatically different from 3E and class power is relative and based on what paths you choose.

1. Wizard: Still the most versatile and powerful class in the game at high level. It's impossible to match spell versatility. But still very boring at low levels and stands out as such when other classes are getting very cool abilities as they level up. No longer can do everything equally well to other classes. Like you can't make a wizard that does melee as well as a fighter or barbarian. You attempt this and you will get torn apart. But you still have incredible versatility with your spells at high level.

2. Cleric: Highly versatile. The most powerful healing caster in the game still. Powerful summoner. More general survivability than the wizard. Not far behind the wizard, but still can't match the wizard on sheer versatility and spell power.

3. Barbarian: You can build an absolutely sick beast barbarian now. A barbarian that can take most encounters and stomp them into garbage. A barbarian that casters hate because he only misses saves on a 1. A barbarian that eats magic, sunders spells, and can rip summoned creatures apart like cotton candy. That has insane hit points and can also dish insane damage. Probably the best melee class in the game right now.

4. Sorcerer: Because of a sorcerer's more limited spell selection, I place them on tier 2. They're still very powerful. What they lose in spell versatility, they make up for with bloodline arcana and bloodline powers. You can get all sorts of nifty abilities and make insane mind controllers with DCs that can allow you to dominate dragons. You can make blasters that wizard's can't touch. You can make shapechangers that can go toe to toe in melee. You can be immune to crits, stun, and combine powers to make for a beastly character that is very hard to deal with.

5. Druid: Druid is a druid. You get a lot of different abilities, but don't really stand out at anything in particular. You're a jack of all trades divine caster. You can gain access to some spells to make the druid a little more interesting, but it's still basically a druid.

6. Oracle: This class is pretty fun. Basically the divine version of the sorcerer. Oracle of Life is the best healer in the game and can be made really hard to bring down. Some of the other oracle paths are interesting, but not as interesting as the sorcerer. Some of the interesting oracle paths: Time, Metal, Dark Tapestry, Ancestor, Wind.

7. Fighter: Two-hander fighter is the sickest damage dealer in the game. Archer fighter is most dangerous damage dealer in the game. They beat you on initiative, chances are you won't live long enough to get a spell off. Archery does insane damage now. You can do a lot of things with fighters now. Even the two-weapon fighter is pretty nasty. I'm playing one right now and if you can feed on AoOs and get a good crit range, you crit a lot and do a lot of damage.

8. Monk: This class just got a huge boost with the release of the Ultimte Combat. Martial arts styles are fun and effective. Some of the new archetypes are cool and effective. You can make a sick Tertori Grappler or a non-lawful physically tough Martial Artists or a vampiric Hungry Ghost Monk or a Master of Many Styles using three or four martial arts styles together. Monk was already a pretty fun class, but they are more fun now. Probably still not as enjoyable if playing in a 15 point campaign, but if you get to roll or play in a 20 point campaign or above, you can have some fun.

9. Bard: The best physical damage dealer support class in the game. If you have a party with a few physical damage dealers, they will love you as a bard. Fairly good spell selection. They have one melee option bard now called the Dervish Dancer that looks pretty effective.

10. Magus: They did a real nice job on this class. Finally a fighter/mage hybrid that is appealing. They have some very intersting archetypes like Bladebound Magus and Kensai.

11. Rogue: Rogue is still the red-headed step child of the classes. If you like playing rogues, they can be effective. But are probably the least interesting of the classes. Bad archetypes and overall uninteresting abilities unless you play in a skill heavy campaign.

12. Ninja: This class seems very interesting. So far watching my friend play one shows they are more powerful than the rogue. Easier to set up sneak attack and far more interesting rogue powers. He's setting up this cheesy Sap Master build that any sneak attack class can do, but your DM will hate.

13. Ranger: This class is surprisingly powerful now. A ranger archer is vicious. Rangers have an effective spell list now. They are definitely a physical damage dealing class to be reckoned with. Really fun to play too.

14. Paladin: Paladin is a truly powerful destroyer of evil now and a near invincible holy warrior that is as hard to kill as any class in the game. Can have the best saves of any class in the game and gets more immunities now. Spell list is more effective. Smite Evil is a truly frightening ability now. When you smite an evil creature, they will feel it. Not once, but until they are dead or flee.

15. Inquisitor: This class offers a level of versatility that is hard to match. I can't really list everything they can do at an effective level. But so far I've been able to heal, fight in melee, and use a bow very effectively. I do so much damage with every hit I'm called the clean up man because once I bring the hammer, not much can withstand me. The amount of attack and damage bonus stacking you can do is insane. I'm averaging 60 plus points a hit at level 12 and I haven't even bought him optimal gear or had a chance to fully buff. Judgments are versatile and this class is very powerful and fun to play. I recommend melee over ranged if you play one, but I think a ranged guy could be real tough too.

16. Samurai: Ran one was an enemy. Does great damage to his target. Not a lot of versatility. I have to see more.

17. Cavalier: No experience with this class. No one has played one yet.

18. Witch: Can be nasty. Has some nasty hexes and a versatile spell list. Had one witch mess up the fighter badly with a hex. Not a great deal of experience with them. No one wants to play one as a PC because of the familiar. Somone kills your familiar, you lose all your spells. Very few people want to risk this.

19. Alchemist: No real experience. Friend says Ragechemist is a nasty archetype if you want to build a melee alchemist.

20. Summoner: Looks fun. No real experience with it. We fought a summoner. Eidolon was weak against optimized characters. AoE damage messed them up pretty good as the eidolon and summoner both took heavy damage.

21. Gunslinger: Too new. No real experience. Looks like it could be fun in a campaign with a DM that enjoyed running a campaign with an Old West feel.
 

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