I don't get the dislike of healing surges

[gamerprinter]

I'm probably coming across as pedantic or stubborn, but to me, that looks like divine or magical protection/toughness and is therefore not completely physical. Oh well, as another poster said recently, that's semantics.

That's just it, its how the system has always worked - if it were magic or toughness it would state that it in the rule description, and it doesn't. Its just how D&D works. I've never had a problem with it, or needed to explain it, as an explanation isn't going to change the mechanic - its semantics.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Are they really more boring than Cure Light Wounds wands or potions of healing?

Yes, they are.

Relying on someone else to use a limited resource is more stressful. If Clarke the Cleric is busy healing Bob the Barbarian then Randy the Ranger may be in trouble.

Add in three hours of excruciatingly dull combat and you have why I hate Healing Surges.

Worse, folks trying to make them sound better makes me hate them more, not less. Adding frustration to annoyance.

I really think that this is one of those situations where 3.X and 4e fans are not going to understand or accept the other's view. If you like Healing Surges, then fine, play 4e, but do not assume that because I do not like Healing Surges then I do not understand them. I hate them for what they are.

The Auld Grump

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...do not assume that because I do not like Healing Surges then I do not understand them. I hate them for what they are.

That's the core of it.

 

[Pentius]

There's no such thing as a Magic Shop in any of my worlds. In fact, I haven't included the concept in my published setting either. Of course, that won't stop GMs from sticking one in, and they're welcome to it.

For me, magic items are treasure found on adventures, not purchased in stores.

I do that, too, regardless of edition, but it only makes healing even more mechanically similar to surges. In 4e, healing is X per day, internal to the character, in old Es with no wands, healing is X per day, internal to one character(the cleric).

 

[FireLance]

Rather than trying to convince me that Healing Surges don't suck, or that if they sucked then it wasn't Healing Surges, just accept that I really did not have fun with 4e, that Healing Surges were a big part of why I didn't have fun, and leave it at that. I have literally had more fun watching paint dry. (I am cheating with that comparison - I like painting miniatures.)

Frankly, if it was an email conversation, I'd be happy to leave it at that. However, since this is a messageboard, others will also be reading what I write.

I do not dispute that you did not have fun with 4E, and I do not dispute that you think healing surges were a big part of that. However, I still think that the key issue was too much in-combat recovery of hit points rather than healing surges per se. This is not an assumption, by the way, it is my analysis based on what you have posted on grind and combat length.

The way I see it, the real culprits are the Second Wind action, minor action healing powers and other ways to spend a healing surge in combat. As mentioned, healing surges may contribute to the problem because the standard conversion rate in 4E is 1 healing surge = 25% maximum hit points, and that adds to the rate at which hit points are recovered in combat. Lowering the conversion rate to 1 healing surge = 10% maximum hit points might mitigate the problem. Removing ways to spend a healing surge in combat might eliminate it completely.

 

[Pentius]

Yes, they are.

Relying on someone else to use a limited resource is more stressful. If Clarke the Cleric is busy healing Bob the Barbarian then Randy the Ranger may be in trouble.

Except that still happens in 4e. A cleric can only heal one person per turn. Randy may be able to second wind, but that is still a very much inferior solution to getting his own cleric healing. Randy the Ranger using his second wind in 4e is not unlike Clark the Cleric hitting things with his mace in 3.x(or 4e, really). Yeah, the problem(damage, or lack thereof) will be addressed, but the one suited to it does it better.

Add in three hours of excruciatingly dull combat and you have why I hate Healing Surges.

I'm not going to try to say this didn't happen. I'm sure it did. I've had 3 hour 4e combats, just like I've had 3 hour 3.5 combats. But I really don't think second wind is as much a contributor as you seem to think. It's 1/4 of a character's HP. As a DM, I routinely take that much out of a character in a single turn, more if foes gang up on that one. And that's without the new MM3 math. If your rounds are long enough that a second wind makes a battle that much longer, there are deeper problems than surges going on. Last time I had a fight that long in 4e, we had a break in the middle, and the rest was spent fighting a solo brute with 400hp(at level 5 or some such where that took way to long), AND everyone was brand new to the game. In 3.5, it was also a solo fight, as I recall, but it took forever because one character(totally not me, cough cough) was such a noob he had to look up his spells each round.

Worse, folks trying to make them sound better makes me hate them more, not less. Adding frustration to annoyance.

yay, I'm exacerbating.

I really think that this is one of those situations where 3.X and 4e fans are not going to understand or accept the other's view. If you like Healing Surges, then fine, play 4e, but do not assume that because I do not like Healing Surges then I do not understand them. I hate them for what they are.

The Auld Grump

I get that we have different preferences, and I'm often willing to accept that as a root cause between our disagreements, but I have yet to see you hate healing surges for a reason that even sort of matches my own experience with them. Thus my post.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have yet to see you hate healing surges for a reason that even sort of matches my own experience with them.

Lots of people have seen Gone With The Wind and loved it. I hate it. No matter how much GWTWphiles explain their reaction in an attempt to convert me to their view, they will fail.

TAG isn't you. I am not you. Why should our experiences with HSes match yours?

Do YOU get reminded of Tekken* when you burn a HS? I do. Every. Damn. Time. If not, why don't you? Because you are not me. Thus, one aspect of the game that I find objectionable is not anywhere within the scope of your experiences.




* I love Tekken, BTW.

 

[Bluenose]

That's just it, its how the system has always worked - if it were magic or toughness it would state that it in the rule description, and it doesn't. Its just how D&D works.

This is incorrect. I'm pretty sure someone in this thread already quoted the description of hit points from the AD&D 1st Edition Players' Handbook so I won't repeat it, but it's quite clear that hit points weren't always purely physical damage. It's very possible to argue that the 4th edition approach is closer to the original intent.

Edit: I'll correct myself. Dungeon Master's Guide, p.82, not the PHB

 

[Pentius]

I've never heard people defend the HP system as not being a representation of physical damage as much as I have until 4e came out.

Yeah, I can see that.

I know I might get a lot of slack for saying this, but to me, this seems like nothing more than an excuse to defend the healing surge system and to explain how the system is not unbelievable/videogamey. Or it's an excuse to justify how wonky the HP system actually is if you try to think of it as just physical damage. It's like an easy cop-out.

It's really not. The HP system is and has never been an honest attempt to represent purely physical damage. I get that you see this more since 4e. 4e forces people to face the issue, because it actually takes its own flavor seriously. Let me say this plain, with bold, so you see it, HP as physical damage has never been realistic. Now, I'm a fan of reflavoring, I really am, but one rule holds constant throughout. If your way of narrating the events doesn't match the boundaries the rules set, that is ON YOU. So maybe 4e doesn't quite jive with the way you've butchered the system for 20 years. That isn't 4e's fault. The system has always been intended for HP to be abstract.

If I have to think of the HP system as "physical endurance, skill, luck, and resolve", then I have to assume a percentage of the "damage" from a claw attack is physical damage if I can die by reaching -10 HP.

No, you really don't. That's what an abstract system is all about. IT'S NOT CONCRETE.

Why not tell me what that percentage of physical damage is? Give me a way to track it since I can die from it, and we'll just assume that "skill, luck, and resolve" were factored into the attack I received from a beasts claws and ignore those the way we ignore physical damage with the idea of Healing Surges.

I see this idea a lot. Honestly, I have no particular problem with further abstraction of HP. But do you really think 4e wouldn't be under constant assault for being "not like D&D" if it had defense points or some such instead of HP?

 

[Pentius]

I know I might get a lot of slack for saying this, but to me, this seems like nothing more than an excuse to defend the healing surge system and to explain how the system is not unbelievable/videogamey. Or it's an excuse to justify how wonky the HP system actually is if you try to think of it as just physical damage. It's like an easy cop-out.

And one last bit:

I've seen a lot of people describe HP as concrete over the years. It's a constant thorn in my side, and why I'm so happy bringing up a new generation of gamers. I've heard that HP should be concrete since 1e, the idea making 0 sense all the way, and I've accepted it as one of those unavoidable idiosyncracies of a specific group. It's like when a player tries to say, in character, "I have X AC". Or "My weapon is +X"

In other words, treating HP as concrete has snapped me out of any immersion immediately for my entire gaming 'career'. I'm glad to see 4e finally make people face the inherent abstraction in the system. Let me say plain, it was no less realistic when a 1e fighter cured a spear to the gut by resting for a weekend.


I am fully aware some groups regard HP as concrete. You are actively narrating against the rules, via any edition. The developers are NOT beholden to your against-the-rules-narration. DEAL WITH IT.