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D&D 5E Should magic items stay out of the next PHB?

ForeverSlayer

Banned
Banned
The same reason why to-hit tables were moved from the DMG to the PHB -- because it's information players need (and preventing players from getting it is futile). Player characters carry around magic items and monsters do not.

Monsters not carrying around items is a 4th edition thing and nothing more. Player's don't get magic items unless the DM says they do or provides a means to get them. Not allowing monsters to have magic items was stupid on 4th editions part. A perfectly good magical sword just sitting there in a chest or a hoard and not used by the creature made no sense what so ever. I don't want the bad designs of 4th edition to fall into the next edition.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The same reason why to-hit tables were moved from the DMG to the PHB -- because it's information players need (and preventing players from getting it is futile).
It's information DMs need and players shouldn't have to bother with; also a poor side effect is that too much other information is sometimes revealed to players who do the math e.g. creature's AC, + bonus on that new magic sword, etc.
Player characters carry around magic items and monsters do not.
What???

In your world, maybe...

Does this also apply to non-monster enemies e.g. a rival adventuring party the PCs have to fight?

Lan-"what's the point of killing them if they have no stuff to take"-efan
 

CM

Adventurer
4e did away with the assumption that every high-level NPC enemy needed a +X weapon and +X armor and a half-dozen other magic items to stay competitive with PCs. They were still perfectly capable of being equipped with magic items. They simply gained no attack/damage bonus if the item's enhancement bonus was below a certain threshold based on level. They can still use other powers the item possesses.

Granted, it seems odd when PCs are assumed to have at least magic armor, weapons, and neckpieces of a certain level. But then again 4e is all about streamlining NPCs and monsters.
 

drothgery

First Post
The futility is neither here nor there, however why is it information that the players require? Why does a player need to know every magical item that's out there?
A player doesn't need to know every magical item out there, just like he doesn't need to know every spell out there. He does, however, need to know what the ones his character has do. You'll note that every pre-4e PHB devoted over 1/3 of its pages to spells.
 

If the game is based off of rolling a d20 (and WotC isn't going to change this), +3 vs +0 is a big deal unless you're in near-autosuccess or near-autofailure ranges.


Quite right. A +3 bonus should be a big deal and a character with a +3 sword should have a significant advantage over one that does not. If you "assume" everyone will have +3 weapons and fix the math to account for this then eveyone has got a normal sword after all and we simply have bonus bloat. We have been there and done that. It would seem that the solution is not to hand out +3 swords as commom items. When one is discovered then, it will be important and provide the advantage it was meant to do.

The same reason why to-hit tables were moved from the DMG to the PHB -- because it's information players need (and preventing players from getting it is futile). Player characters carry around magic items and monsters do not.

They don't? How on earth do the PCs keep finding loot from monsters if they never have any? Not only do monsters have magic items, some of them will actually use them. An enemy fighter type will certainly make use of magic weapons & armor if he/she has them and a spellcaster will use a wand in battle if they are able.
 

drothgery

First Post
Does this also apply to non-monster enemies e.g. a rival adventuring party the PCs have to fight?

Lan-"what's the point of killing them if they have no stuff to take"-efan
Overgenalizing for effect. Also 4e-style monster (and NPC) stat blocks generally don't break out the effect of items they carry individually; they're part of the monster's abilities. So you don't need to know a magic sword's stats when a monster or NPC has it; it's only when it moves into a player's hands that you do.
 

A player doesn't need to know every magical item out there, just like he doesn't need to know every spell out there. He does, however, need to know what the ones his character has do. You'll note that every pre-4e PHB devoted over 1/3 of its pages to spells.
In previous editions, did you ever have trouble working out what your character's handful of magical items did? Our group never has but your experiences may be different. Spells however were a high-use character feature for magic-users and so players definitely needed access to this information. As such, I'm still not seeing the necessity here for putting them in the PHB. There's enough in the PHB anyway, without further burdening it with a chunk of pages of non-essential campaign specific information.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

drothgery

First Post
In previous editions, did you ever have trouble working out what your character's handful of magical items did? Our group never has but your experiences may be different.
Exactly how much can fit in a bag of holding? How many people can fit on the carpet of flying or the folding boat? What does a belt of giant strength do? Obviously a +1 flametongue sword has something to do with fire, but what exactly are the mechanics (especially pre-3.x when the effects of that kind of thing were largely standardized)? And I grabbed the DM's copy of the DMG when I was playing 2e (because I was a broke college student and didn't have my own), or in 3.x brought my own copy. Of what was supposed to be a DM's book, but I had a copy anyway even though I never ran a game in person (in other annoying multi-book stuff, stats for summoned animals and common riding animals -- yup, in the monster manual, which players are even less likely to have than the DMG).


Spells however were a high-use character feature for magic-users and so players definitely needed access to this information. As such, I'm still not seeing the necessity here for putting them in the PHB. There's enough in the PHB anyway, without further burdening it with a chunk of pages of non-essential campaign specific information.
Magic items are essential unless WotC wants to radically depart from prior norms for D&D or wants broken math. And only the barest handful of them are campaign-specific.
 

Exactly how much can fit in a bag of holding? How many people can fit on the carpet of flying or the folding boat? What does a belt of giant strength do?
Normally the DM tells you. Although, imagine the DM didn't. Imagine your character had to work out the capacity of a bag of holding, or perhaps you could roleplay that your character thought it could hold an infinite amount. Perhaps you could squeeze four people on that carpet but then when it flew off, only two were able to magically hold on (with the others falling off). It opens up a little more imagination and discovery than having an ironclad this item does x.

Magic items are essential unless WotC wants to radically depart from prior norms for D&D or wants broken math. And only the barest handful of them are campaign-specific.
I think a lot of people were complaining about the christmas tree effect in 3.x while others were complaining how anaemic MIs were in 4e. Anything that tones down the reliance on magic is a good thing in my opinion; let the heroic actions of the PCs come to the fore rather than their suite of undeserved and spoonfed MIs.

By the way, by campaign MIs, I'm talking about items the DM (and players) feel comfortable having in the campaign; not named MIs from Greyhawk or something. If an MI is in the PHB, the players feel entitled to nominate it in a "treasure packet" where as the DM might have other ideas but is now hamstrung. Some DMs prefer to have the MIs fit their campaign world and wish to control such things or perhaps wish to make them more mysterioius. Put them in the DMG and both styles of play are catered for.

And finally, I'm sure they can balance things mathematically so that the game is not "broken".

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Stalker0

Legend
They moved magic items to 4e because magic items were assumed a core part of the game. Crafting them was also very easy, so the game wanted the players to have easy access to that info.

For the style of game 4e was, that was the right choice.

If they do make magic items more special and "plot oriented" in 5e, then they should get moved back to the DMG.
 

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