Rethinking the 3-Book Model

[Bedrockgames]

If D&D were trimmed down to 3-4 races 4-5 classes and two core books, I'd expect a drastic price cut. I'm taking 50% or more. Quite frankly I'm not interested in a game that only goes to level 10 with that little content. I can write my own RPG with more content than that.

Yes. Less isn't always more

 

[Crazy Jerome]

If I were in charge, I would omit them from the Core Rulebook, but have them immediately available via a Web Enhancement. Then make sure they got into print at the earliest opportunity.

This kind of issue is another reason why I advocate for four books, BECMI-style one book core, plus the traditional trilogy.

Because it isn't just the dragonborn fuss. It's the dragonborn + gnome + half elf + tiefling + half orc + a bunch of other stuff fuss. And if they stick with the three book model on launch, they are damned if they do, damned if they don't, on every one of those. And that's just the races.

One of the things a single core book does is allow (require) them to be really picky and traditional on what goes in that core book. But at the same time, they want to quickly follow up with the rest, and a web enhancement ain't gonna get the job down on this at an emotional level. People want their thing in a book, soon. Plus, there is the practical issue of groups where the DM won't allow something not in a main book.

So it's just a lot easier to have a starting set of books where one is, "sorry, none of that controversial stuff made it, we were pressed for space, and human, elf, dwaf, and halfing were good enough for BECMI." Then the other three are, "but if you want all that stuff, we've got you covered."

It also doesn't hurt that we know it can work, because that is how most of us in the older crowd used the AD&D 1E trilogy when they came out--as supplements to the Basic/Expert "core".

But I do agree that if they make a crippled starter set/book that is not capable of real play by itself, the whole thing will be doomed. Not because that couldn't be made to work, but because the kind of attitude that thinks a crippled starter set/book is a good idea will permeate the whole development--and worse, marketing.

 

[GSHamster]

I'm not sure the 3-book model is the best, but it seems "less worse" than all the other models.

The real problem is the three lists: list of spells/feats/powers, list of magic items, list of monsters. Essentially, each list takes up so much space that you need to put each list in a separate book.

If you want to change the 3-book model, you really have to first decide what to do with the lists. The rules themselves are probably small enough to fit into a single book.

 

[steeldragons]

I will just add, completely non-sequitur, and in addition to what I said, above, about races...

If half-elf and FULL-blooded elf are valid PC races...there's no reason that half-orc and FULL-blooded orc shouldn't be allowed/part of core.

With that lil' apiphany...my selection for "core races" would include:
Human, elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, Half-elf, Half-orc, Dragonborn, Tiefling and [full-blooded] Orc.

Neither here nor there. Just sayin'.
--SD

 

[ShadoWWW]

The best model I have ever seen was BECMI. You bought what you were interested in and high-level play was much more playtested than standard PH-DMG-MM model with all levels at once.

 

[delericho]

I will just add, completely non-sequitur, and in addition to what I said, above, about races...

If half-elf and FULL-blooded elf are valid PC races...there's no reason that half-orc and FULL-blooded orc shouldn't be allowed/part of core.

The list of PC races, in the 3e core at least, includes all the LA +0, non-evil humanoids. Orcs are excluded due to their "usually Chaotic Evil" alignment.

(Whether that's a good reason or not I leave as an exercise for the reader... but there is a reason.)

 

[steeldragons]

The list of PC races, in the 3e core at least, includes all the LA +0, non-evil humanoids. Orcs are excluded due to their "usually Chaotic Evil" alignment.

(Whether that's a good reason or not I leave as an exercise for the reader... but there is a reason.)

Since we're talking about 5e...why would "the 3e core" or "LA anything" have any effect on this conversation, whatsoever? Since when did we hear or know that LA was a factor in 5e? [Gods I hope it's not/has nothing to do with 5e].

Orcs are easily included...even with "usually chaotic evil" included...if you want. "Usually" doesn't apply to PCs. Otherwise, every fighter would be part of the town guard or the army...every mager would be part of their guild and venturing NOwhere...every cleric would be a devout member of their temple...etc...

 

[Transformer]

This kind of issue is another reason why I advocate for four books, BECMI-style one book core, plus the traditional trilogy.

Because it isn't just the dragonborn fuss. It's the dragonborn + gnome + half elf + tiefling + half orc + a bunch of other stuff fuss. And if they stick with the three book model on launch, they are damned if they do, damned if they don't, on every one of those. And that's just the races.

One of the things a single core book does is allow (require) them to be really picky and traditional on what goes in that core book. But at the same time, they want to quickly follow up with the rest, and a web enhancement ain't gonna get the job down on this at an emotional level. People want their thing in a book, soon. Plus, there is the practical issue of groups where the DM won't allow something not in a main book.

So it's just a lot easier to have a starting set of books where one is, "sorry, none of that controversial stuff made it, we were pressed for space, and human, elf, dwaf, and halfing were good enough for BECMI." Then the other three are, "but if you want all that stuff, we've got you covered."

It also doesn't hurt that we know it can work, because that is how most of us in the older crowd used the AD&D 1E trilogy when they came out--as supplements to the Basic/Expert "core".

But I do agree that if they make a crippled starter set/book that is not capable of real play by itself, the whole thing will be doomed. Not because that couldn't be made to work, but because the kind of attitude that thinks a crippled starter set/book is a good idea will permeate the whole development--and worse, marketing.

You'll have to forgive me as I've never played anything before 3.5 and haven't experienced the model you're describing, but doesn't having a book that's basically a third of a PH, a third of a DMG, and a third of a MM, alongside an actual PH DMG and MM, cause a constant and very annoying practical problem?

The problem I mean is, what happens every time you go to use a book or look something up?

"What's the rule for concealment again? Give me the basic book. Lemme find the page. Hmm. I can't find it. Give me just another minute. Shoot. Ah, of course, it was considered advanced enough to only make it into the PH. Hand me the PH there..."

"I wanna build a fighter! Gimme both the basic book and the PH, since a few of the martial maneuvers I want are in there. Dang, it sure would be nice if I didn't have to cross-reference two books just to build the fighter I want..."

"What's the official penalty to climb for that again? Look it up in the PH. Ah, shoot, I guess it was considered basic enough to make it in the basic book. Well, gimme the basic book then."

"Alright, random encounter time! Lemme find that one monster. Hmm. What the heck? Oh, of course, it's in the basic book, not this one..."

"I wanna build a trap. Hmm. Well, better dig out the basic book and the DMG, since the basic trapbuilding rules are in the basic and one of the advanced trap options I want is in the DMG. Sigh..."

"Time to select feats for my character. Well, I've gotta look in at least two different books, even if I ignore all the splatbooks..."

I suppose you could duplicate all the information in the basic book in the other three, but then everyone will complain about buying the same information twice, or else they'll just ignore the basic book.

I can understand the BECMI model of a book or boxed set for every 5 or 10 levels much better; then there's relatively little confusion about where to look. I could also understand having a separate rules compendium and then just having player options in the PH; that's a very clear model. I could even understand having a PH with just four classes and races and all the rules, and then having a PH2 with other player options as well as a DMG and a MM, all available at launch. But dividing every sort of information, from classes to feats to DM advice to combat rules to monster between a single basic book and three other books? That sounds like a recipe for frustration.

 

[Sunseeker]

You'll have to forgive me as I've never played anything before 3.5 and haven't experienced the model you're describing, but doesn't having a book that's basically a third of a PH, a third of a DMG, and a third of a MM, alongside an actual PH DMG and MM, cause a constant and very annoying practical problem?

The problem I mean is, what happens every time you go to use a book or look something up?

"What's the rule for concealment again? Give me the basic book. Lemme find the page. Hmm. I can't find it. Give me just another minute. Shoot. Ah, of course, it was considered advanced enough to only make it into the PH. Hand me the PH there..."

"I wanna build a fighter! Gimme both the basic book and the PH, since a few of the martial maneuvers I want are in there. Dang, it sure would be nice if I didn't have to cross-reference two books just to build the fighter I want..."

"What's the official penalty to climb for that again? Look it up in the PH. Ah, shoot, I guess it was considered basic enough to make it in the basic book. Well, gimme the basic book then."

"Alright, random encounter time! Lemme find that one monster. Hmm. What the heck? Oh, of course, it's in the basic book, not this one..."

"I wanna build a trap. Hmm. Well, better dig out the basic book and the DMG, since the basic trapbuilding rules are in the basic and one of the advanced trap options I want is in the DMG. Sigh..."

"Time to select feats for my character. Well, I've gotta look in at least two different books, even if I ignore all the splatbooks..."

I suppose you could duplicate all the information in the basic book in the other three, but then everyone will complain about buying the same information twice, or else they'll just ignore the basic book.

I can understand the BECMI model of a book or boxed set for every 5 or 10 levels much better; then there's relatively little confusion about where to look. I could also understand having a separate rules compendium and then just having player options in the PH; that's a very clear model. I could even understand having a PH with just four classes and races and all the rules, and then having a PH2 with other player options as well as a DMG and a MM, all available at launch. But dividing every sort of information, from classes to feats to DM advice to combat rules to monster between a single basic book and three other books? That sounds like a recipe for frustration.

I haven't played the older editions either, but I would wager that the "basic rules" would also be in the "advanced" books.

So you buy the basic book for a quick and simple game, and you buy the advanced for a long and full-blooded game.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

You'll have to forgive me as I've never played anything before 3.5 and haven't experienced the model you're describing, but doesn't having a book that's basically a third of a PH, a third of a DMG, and a third of a MM, alongside an actual PH DMG and MM, cause a constant and very annoying practical problem?

The problem I mean is, what happens every time you go to use a book or look something up?

Sure, but as opposed to what exactly? The model where you go look in the Advanced Whatitzname Book for Martial Completeness? Monster Supreme Collection 3.14? Essential Guide to D&Ding in the Snow?

Also, I didn't mean to give the impression that this is how BECMI/RC and AD&D 1E were designed exactly. For one thing, RC came much later, and though there is a lot of easy conversion between them, BECMI and AD&D are separate games. RC is mainly a good example because it is a lot of complete D&D in one book, accomplished by keeping the monsters, magic items, advice, etc. rather concise.

I haven't played the older editions either, but I would wager that the "basic rules" would also be in the "advanced" books.

So you buy the basic book for a quick and simple game, and you buy the advanced for a long and full-blooded game.

Some people have said this, but not me. I'd want the core book to not be repeated--partially because it's the one and only source of the main rules in my model, but also because if you make a complete but limited set of options in it, they shouldn't need to be repeated.

(Replying to both) Also keep in mind that they are talking lots of options here. So under the kind of thing I wrote, let's say you have the fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric in the core book, along with some very traditional monsters and magic items and the other stuff I listed. These are things you use all the time, and pretty soon you get used to them being there. If you want a fighter, you always start here. If you want a bard, you start in the PHB. The core, default stuff that everyone uses is in the core book. That optional section for advanced maneuvers (for all martial characters) is in the PHB.

I'll grant that it is a little goofy from a class-building perspective, and maybe from picking monsters and magic items. But hey, if we have a lot to pick from, that stuff is going to be in multiple books anyway. There is going to be optional stuff that applies across classes that would end up in separate books. So everything that applies to a given class isn't going to be in one book anyway.

It's a decent trade to me to have a clean introduction to the game for new players, that isn't a crippled "starter set" that you really can't do much with or learn to play "real 5E D&D" with. Plus, I suspect that this model would release page count in the PHB, DMG, MM, allowing those books to explore what people want a little better.

The PHB might extend classes only by bard, druid, paladin, and ranger. But then it needs not only the default themes and backgrounds for those classes, but all of the extra themes and backgrounds that didn't make the core book. It needs any extra spells for bard, druid, etc. And then it needs the extra spells for optional modules, perhaps such as rituals.

Whatever. The stuff used to replicate the traditional 8+ classes from prior versions is going to take multiple books. It's not a question of if but how.