D&D 5E Does D&D Next need a Core Setting?

[Lord Zack]

The archon thing, isn't that true of any monster? The issue is that they changed the fundamental monster, regardless of the fluff. Just as other monsters have been changed over time.

In 4th edition, yes. That's why so many people didn't like it. In every other version of D&D someone could run Greyhawk with just the core rulebooks, without having to modify any races or monsters.

 

[am181d]

It was many things, but unintrusive was one thing it was not. It forced massive changes to FR, dropped primordials, eladrin, and various other PoL core concepts into Dark Sun... it even shamelessly altered the history/nature/origins of a huge number of classic D&D creatures and concepts. It was anything but unintrusive.

If Nentire Vale / PoL is the default setting for 5e with a similar level of saturation and intrusion into other campaign settings, it's a deal breaker for me.

But there's a nuance here, right? There's a difference between "Nentir Vale is the default setting" and "every other campaign setting must be re-written to be more like Nentir Vale." Nothing about "there's a core setting" REQUIRES other settings to be re-written.

(All of this will be moot if FR becomes the core setting and they need to rewrite FR to match the core rule assumptions.)

 

[Herschel]

It was many things, but unintrusive was one thing it was not. It forced massive changes to FR, dropped primordials, eladrin, and various other PoL core concepts into Dark Sun... it even shamelessly altered the history/nature/origins of a huge number of classic D&D creatures and concepts. It was anything but unintrusive.

If Nentire Vale / PoL is the default setting for 5e with a similar level of saturation and intrusion into other campaign settings, it's a deal breaker for me.

This is where people with no real knowledge of 4E come off as silly. The Forgotten Realms changes had nothing to do with the Nentir Vale, it was ANOTHER partial re-boot. For example, The Time of Troubles re-shaped the cosmology directly relating to the Forgotten Realms, yet where are the rants on that? And that wasn't the first either. Near -cataclysmic events are pretty much a periodic happening in The Realms. Singling out the Spellplague is kind of silly.

Heck, there's the rants against 4E PHB for nothaving "any" fluff or ties to a game world and now rants that it's too tied to a default setting? Which is it?

The game world is whatever you want to include as a DM, regardless of a default setting. You don't need to modify anything. Heck, I run 1E mods and old FR stuff in 4E all the time.

 

[Herschel]

In 4th edition, yes. That's why so many people didn't like it. In every other version of D&D someone could run Greyhawk with just the core rulebooks, without having to modify any races or monsters.

You mean I haven't been running 1E mods and old FR stuff in 4E all this time? Huh, weird.

In other words, your point makes no sense. Monsters change from time to time, either roll with it or default them to the old way. Both work just fine.

 

[Lord Zack]

You mean I haven't been running 1E mods and old FR stuff in 4E all this time? Huh, weird.

In other words, your point makes no sense. Monsters change from time to time, either roll with it or default them to the old way. Both work just fine.

You either: made changes to the settings in order to incorporate the changes made to various creatures in 4e, or modified creatures in 4e to be more like they're previous versions, right? I don't want to have to either of those. Nor should I have to if the name on the books is "Dungeons and Dragons".

 

[Lord Zack]

This is where people with no real knowledge of 4E come off as silly. The Forgotten Realms changes had nothing to do with the Nentir Vale, it was ANOTHER partial re-boot. For example, The Time of Troubles re-shaped the cosmology directly relating to the Forgotten Realms, yet where are the rants on that? And that wasn't the first either. Near -cataclysmic events are pretty much a periodic happening in The Realms. Singling out the Spellplague is kind of silly.

I don't like the Time of Troubles, but at least it didn't have to deal with the natures of certain creatures being changed to something completely different.

Heck, there's the rants against 4E PHB for nothaving "any" fluff or ties to a game world and now rants that it's too tied to a default setting? Which is it?

Even though the tiefling empire of Bael Turath was the enemy of the ancient dragonborn empire of Arkhosia, dragonborn recognize tieflings as worthy companions or opponents, admiring their strength and tenacity as friends or enemies.

Despite the far reach and power of Nerath, humans in the present day are a scattered and divided people. Dozens of small kingdoms, fiefdoms, and free cities have arisen from Nerath’s ruins, and many of these realms are petty, weak, or isolated. Tensions and misunderstandings among them often precipitate skirmishes, espionage, betrayal, and even open warfare.

Hundreds of years ago, the leaders of the human empire of Bael Turath made pacts with devils to solidify their hold over its enormous territory. Those humans became the first tieflings, and they governed their empire in the name of their infernal masters. In time, Bael Turath came into conflict with Arkhosia, the ancient empire of the dragonborn, and decades of warfare left both empires in ruins. Bael Turath’s grand capital was thrown down in ruin.

The game world is whatever you want to include as a DM, regardless of a default setting. You don't need to modify anything. Heck, I run 1E mods and old FR stuff in 4E all the time.

What do you do when a creature shows up that doesn't exist in 4e? How do you deal with dragonborn and eladrin?

 

[Shemeska]

This is where people with no real knowledge of 4E come off as silly. The Forgotten Realms changes had nothing to do with the Nentir Vale, it was ANOTHER partial re-boot. For example, The Time of Troubles re-shaped the cosmology directly relating to the Forgotten Realms, yet where are the rants on that? And that wasn't the first either.

1e FR used the Great Wheel, 2e FR used the Great Wheel. I fail to see the changes you claim the ToT forced on its cosmology.

The spellplague force-fit all of the various PoL material from dragonborn to 4e eladrin to the whole primordials vs gods dynamic into FR where none of it existed before and previous material directly contradicted it. How is that anything but a situation forced by the PoL/Nentire Vale core getting pushed into other settings?

 

[Kurtomatic]

That has nothing directly to do with the Nentir Vale, and doesn't address the question of this thread. The fact is, 4th edition did include a new cosmology, which was pushed into every crevice they could find (for good or ill, depending on taste). That did happen. Blaming that on Nentir Vale is wagging the dog.

In regards to the question of this topic, it's entirely reasonable to imagine a light, largely implied, quasi-regional setting with limited geography and history used as a backdrop in the rulebooks. That would be pretty close to how the Nentir Vale stuff was originally conceived, PoL-style.

How well that would work for Next is another question. It's really hard to make a truly vague setting that never gets detailed. When players do want hard details (rather than roll their own), how do you migrate them to the serious setting products, how do you avoid spinning out details of your now formally-vague setting, etc.

Like most 5E topics of importance, there's no one correct answer that will work best for everyone.

One thing I don't expect to see is the 4E setting return as default.

 

[Herschel]

I don't like the Time of Troubles, but at least it didn't have to deal with the natures of certain creatures being changed to something completely different.

The pantheon change was huge from a world-building standpoint. It's a very fundamental shift.

What do you do when a creature shows up that doesn't exist in 4e? How do you deal with dragonborn and eladrin?

I roll with it. Monster building in 4E is a breeze like in 1E and 2E, none of that build in character levels and templates. You can if you want but there's no necessity to do so.

In old school FR Dragonborn are Saurials and Tielfings have always been around.

The stuff you quoted is less than half a page. If that puts you in a box creatively then that's not a system issue. It has nothing to do WITH the system, it's just possible base fluff. Two ancient fallen empires if you want to use them that don't even really exist any more.

 

[the Jester]

This is where people with no real knowledge of 4E come off as silly. The Forgotten Realms changes had nothing to do with the Nentir Vale, it was ANOTHER partial re-boot.

Oh, I dunno- the 4e cosmology is really the core setting more than the Vale itself, and you certainly can't deny that the cosmology got shoved down every 4e setting's throat pretty hard core.

For example, The Time of Troubles re-shaped the cosmology directly relating to the Forgotten Realms, yet where are the rants on that?

Were you around back then? There weren't Intarwebz discussions that I was involved in, but a lot lot lot of gamers used to sit around and gripe about the Time of Troubles. Heck, I liked the original 1e FR grey box a great deal- but ToT destroyed any interest I had in the Realms and nothing ever brought it back (the 3e FRCS book was as close as anything has ever come).

Heck, there's the rants against 4E PHB for nothaving "any" fluff or ties to a game world and now rants that it's too tied to a default setting? Which is it?

You don't need a default setting to have fluff.