Save or suck Medusa petrification

[Ravenheart87]

Are people really that afraid of facing challenging enemies? It's not a goblin that you're going to face in every corner. It's a medusa, a rare and deadly monster. She's not supposed to be player friendly. You can be careful or bold and face the consequences - or you can use your mind and come up with some strategy to avoid the penalties. Poilish your shield, use a mirror, put a bag on her head and so on.

In my campaign the adventurers faced a cockatrice a few months ago. It was a random encounter, they surprised the monster, yet they were stupid enough to attack and anger it. The gnome magic user turned to stone. We had a good laugh about the ideas how to use the statue, the gnome's player rolled a new character, and now the party has a new quest too: to find someone who can cast stone to flesh.

 

[Imaro]

The 4e Medusa was one of the few creatures in 4e that had a save or die mechanic. The fact that it had two saves really doesn't make any difference, other than give the players a change to react.

Emphasis mine... that is the difference.

4e mostly ditched SOD it was the better for it.

4e mostly ditched SoD... the game was worse for it. See how easy it is to state opinion as fact and not back it up with any evidence.

I don't agree that 4e disregarded the DND mythology for the Medusa and it is certainly as close to the myth as the rest of DND. The mechanic was redone as it was a different ruleset.

Only it's not... the original myths don't have people slowing down but still able to act. You either are turned to stone or not. Where D&D's mythology diverged was the way in which the medusa's gaze could be countered... however it was in all editions (except 4e) and mythology a one chance thing.

I'm sure some do like save of die effects, but many do not. I personally do not like them as one save or die. I do like if there is a chance for some player intervention, having had a player panic because his character was slowly turning to stone was great fun.

Hey I have no problem with your preferences, and I've already stated that my players didn't have this reaction of panic in 4e at all with MSoD (Multiple Save or Die). What I have a problem with is stating your preferences like they are objectively better for all.

"works for the game" comment is about finding an approach in 5e that helps bridge the gap for different playstyles. Saying that the Medusa in DND needs SOD because that's the way it worked in myth is just silly.

I'm saying that's the way it worked in myth and in D&D (except 4e). Again 4e is the outlier here... not every other edition and myth.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Are people really that afraid of facing challenging enemies? It's not a goblin that you're going to face in every corner. It's a medusa, a rare and deadly monster. She's not supposed to be player friendly. You can be careful or bold and face the consequences - or you can use your mind and come up with some strategy to avoid the penalties. Poilish your shield, use a mirror, put a bag on her head and so on.

In my campaign the adventurers faced a cockatrice a few months ago. It was a random encounter, they surprised the monster, yet they were stupid enough to attack and anger it. The gnome magic user turned to stone. We had a good laugh about the ideas how to use the statue, the gnome's player rolled a new character, and now the party has a new quest too: to find someone who can cast stone to flesh.

Personally, it's that I find nothing challenging about random rolls, though I wouldn't be surprised if others felt the same way.

A challenging foe has an interesting set of abilities that encourages the players to think outside the box in defeating it. SoD just encourages the players to roll well. IMO, rolling well isn't a skill.

 

[Fifth Element]

Take any person who hasn't played D&D yet is at least familiar with some Greek mythology (hell, Percy and the Lightning Theif counts). Tell them they are standing in front of a Medusa.

They'l presumably say "A medusa? Medusa is the proper name for one of the gorgons, you fool! Don't you know anything about Greek mythology?"

It's almost as if myth and D&D can be similar, but are not identical.

IME, this is the kind of gotcha play that engenders ultra-paranoid players who bog down play by insisting on thoroughly checking every five foot square for traps before moving forward.

Agreed. Game mechanics that reward this sort of character behaviour should be excised.

If the medusa is supposed to be the same thing as in the original myth, and have a save or die petrifying attack, I want the gods to personally help me to defeat her by giving me their godly powerful magic items.

Hah. Indeed.

It was still save or die in 4e, you just got two chances to save.

I liked the idea in 4E, but don't think it was executed very well. Being surprised and blowing a save is no fun, and since we're playing a game for fun, I expect to be able to have fun, most of the time.

But in 4E it was too easy to get bonuses to saves. You needed to fail two or three saves to get the big nasty effect, which I think is fine in concept, but it was too easy to make those saves very high-percentage rolls. I ran a game from 1st to 24th level, and I don't think one character ever suffered an ultimate bad effect like this, because they always had their saves buffed and never failed the last one.

There should have been a feeling of danger, but the odds were set too low to really feel it. I would have preferred something in between 3E's chances and 4E's chances.

Exactly, 4E fixed nothing for Medusa's. If they had made those effects (slow, restrained) take effect automatically in those rounds without any saves, until the last round where the character rolled 1 save or turn to stone, it would have been much more interesting.
Might not have solved the entire problem, but it would have made the Medusa and creatures like the Beholder much more lethal and exciting.

Indeed. I think this would have been a better execution.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Are you aware of the scenario that's presented in the playtest module? That's not the kind of situation that I would expect to need recon or Charm Person.

Really?

The set up is that she's pretending to be a normal prisoner so that she can then get freed and also petrify a few PC's for fun.

Presumably, the cultists know what she is, and thus recon is key: hearing them talk about "that thing the boss has tied up in back" isn't an option? The party has to go through waves of acolytes and the dark priest himself to get there and no one thought to take prisoners?

Then, the party lays eyes on her, and they don't get a chance to see through her bluffs and lies and see what she truly is?

The moment she DOES try to petrify a PC (which is only a DC 12), the combat just becomes "fighting with disadvantage" until the medusa escapes or is slain.

Not to mention the initial warning in big bold letters right at the beginning of the adventure that if the PC's are not careful they will get pwned?

IME, this is the kind of gotcha play that engenders ultra-paranoid players who bog down play by insisting on thoroughly checking every five foot square for traps before moving forward. They take absurd precautions in everything they do, because they feel the DM is out to get them (which, given the scenario, I'd say is true because it makes little sense - why didn't they at least place a bag over her head).

She's back in a locked chamber. I don't really think it's an area of high traffic. There's nothing saying where the key to the chamber is, so she might not even be the prisoner of the cultists who are there now.

I don't get the "gotcha" argument. An adventurer is you, and you are in a world of danger and monsters. If you walk through every door with your guns blazing, bad things happen.

This isn't a "screw you!" moment, it's a "be careful" moment. It preserves the possibility of character death and the challenge of playing a game. It only goes very badly for the PC's if they fail to detect her lies, fail to do any recon, fail all of their saves, and also let her escape.

Run it. I bet most players do just fine.

 

[Imaro]

Personally, it's that I find nothing challenging about random rolls, though I wouldn't be surprised if others felt the same way.

A challenging foe has an interesting set of abilities that encourages the players to think outside the box in defeating it. SoD just encourages the players to roll well. IMO, rolling well isn't a skill.

Hmmm, I think a SoD enemy (when used correctly) promotes strategic challenges in preperation and thinking outside the box. In most SoD situations you want to eliminate or minimize the chance that you will even have to roll the die.

You seem to be equating "challenging" with "tactically challenging". I think that's a mistake because not everyone who plays is looking for (or even enjoys) a tactical challenge. This is, IMO, a very 4e mindset.

 

[Ravenheart87]

Hmmm, I think a SoD enemy (when used correctly) promotes startegic challenges in preperation and thinking outside the box. In most SoD situations you want to eliminate or minimize the chance that you will even have to roll the die.

You seem to be equating "challenging" with "tactically challenging". I think that's a mistake because not everyone who plays is looking for (or even enjoys) a tactical challenge. This is, IMO, a very 4e mindset.

My thoughts exactly. Avoiding the SoD is part of the challenge and thinking outside the box. Plus an adventurer should know (or learn) when to fight, when to avoid an encounter and when to flee. You don't have to fight every monster in your way - it's a waste of time and resources.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Really?

The set up is that she's pretending to be a normal prisoner so that she can then get freed and also petrify a few PC's for fun.

Presumably, the cultists know what she is, and thus recon is key: hearing them talk about "that thing the boss has tied up in back" isn't an option? The party has to go through waves of acolytes and the dark priest himself to get there and no one thought to take prisoners?

Then, the party lays eyes on her, and they don't get a chance to see through her bluffs and lies and see what she truly is?

The moment she DOES try to petrify a PC (which is only a DC 12), the combat just becomes "fighting with disadvantage" until the medusa escapes or is slain.

Not to mention the initial warning in big bold letters right at the beginning of the adventure that if the PC's are not careful they will get pwned?



She's back in a locked chamber. I don't really think it's an area of high traffic. There's nothing saying where the key to the chamber is, so she might not even be the prisoner of the cultists who are there now.

I don't get the "gotcha" argument. An adventurer is you, and you are in a world of danger and monsters. If you walk through every door with your guns blazing, bad things happen.

This isn't a "screw you!" moment, it's a "be careful" moment. It preserves the possibility of character death and the challenge of playing a game. It only goes very badly for the PC's if they fail to detect her lies, fail to do any recon, fail all of their saves, and also let her escape.

Run it. I bet most players do just fine.

It's set up to throw the PCs off guard by appearing to be a rescue the prisoner scenario.

It's exactly the sort of thing that makes players suspicious of every single NPC they interact with. I've had DMs that tried to screw us with 90% of the "harmless" or "benevolent" PCs that we met. I have no wish to impart such paranoia upon my players. I've always found that sort of thing to be of great detriment to the game.

Granted, I have wolves in sheeps clothing, but they're the exception rather than the rule. As in, not much more than once or twice in an entire campaign. This encounter would be a complete waste of that.

 

[stevelabny]

Game of Thrones is the hottest thing in books and movies right now.

Didn't you get the memo? People actually ENJOY trying to figure out who they can trust and who they can't.

And since there is no skill list with sense motive on it to "trick" players into thinking that its the only way to find out if someone is lying... the possibilities of how to decide if someone is trustworthy are endless.

 

[jshaft37]

Maybe I'm the only one who got excited for the Roleplay opportunities with the way the Medusa was presented?

At first she tries to convince the PCs to let her free by posing as a damsel in distress. If she needs to up the ante, she can petrify a PC or two to try to force their hand to free her. She's bound to the wall, so she can't do much in the way of attacking and petrifying all the PCs won't get her down either This isn't really a combat challenge at all, its roleplaying.